CCRC Grounds for not Referring

[mb1]

Thanks mb1 - you got my Karma point for that!

Thanks Newbury 1.

Now off to Shoreham airport, so hope the good Karma wings the light aircraft to Jersey!

Will try to catch up on posts later this evening. Apologise beforehand if I send bad posts, as I am likely to be slighty squiffy...

[Reader]

the photos can't be treated like static CCTV images. Stand over an object and photograph it, moving stance by mms and the end results are very different, yet the object has not been moved, just the photographer. Have seen this done, and the CCRC could duplicate this in an afternoon.

That's far too sweeping a statement. The photographs of Sheila's body lying on the floor contain fixed reference points - bloodstains on the floor - that can be used to determine whether the camera position has changed significantly (and if so, by how much), whether one photograph contains significant distortion not present in the other due to the use of different camera lenses, and whether one photograph is enlarged in comparison with another. A change of camera position would cause differences in the photographs, but wouldn't convert straight lines (drawn through fixed reference points) to curved lines. I doubt that it would be possible to duplicate the apparent movement of Sheila's body in relation to the fixed points on the floor, and I would expect accurate measurements of the photographs would make it possible to prove that the body had moved significantly.

[Hartley]

Just out of curiosity, at what point was the moving of the body acceptable.

The police say that's where the body was found and made statements to that effect. Of course the body was moved, I mean it's not still there now.

The subtle differences in position of the rifle and arms/hands shown in the photographs don't really mean anything do they? I'm not sure, I'm obviously missing something.

Obviously if it was proved that the body went from downstairs to upstairs or from the bed to the floor then that's a whole different issue.

[Reader]

The police initially maintained that nothing was moved, but later said the gun was moved and replaced, which might have caused slight movement of Sheila's arm and nightdress. Removing and replacing the gun would not cause Sheila's entire body to move lengthwise a few inches, which is what the photographs appear to show on casual examination.

[Hartley]

The police initially maintained that nothing was moved, but later said the gun was moved and replaced, which might have caused slight movement of Sheila's arm and nightdress. Removing and replacing the gun would not cause Sheila's entire body to move lengthwise a few inches, which is what the photographs appear to show on casual examination.

Okay so just for arguments sake, let's say the body was moved as per the photographs, what are the ramifications?

Is it only to argue that the police who said they didn't move the body didn't tell the truth, or would the movement imply something else?

[Jackiepreece]

I am confused about the commissioners who make the decisions at the ccrc.  I think one of them ewen smith was jeremys solicitor and presumably believed in his innocence.    Was Ewan smith at that time trying to get disclosure of documents still witheld

As regards the withholding of evidence I understand some evidence containing peoples witness statements might be witheld for safety reasons but what possible reason is there for withholding photos and recordings


Isn't there a conflict of evidence at the ccrc with ewen smith

I have asked the question before

[Reader]

There is such a conflict of interest, but he probably didn't have an active role in deliberating on this case.

Sheila's suicide was somewhat implausible if the police found her body and the rifle positioned as they described. If the photographs show their descriptions were significantly inaccurate, the true original positions of the body and gun when Sheila died are not known reliably, so that suicide remains plausible. If this matter were raised at an appeal hearing, the court could be asked to rule that the prosecution must release all the remaining photographs taken of Sheila's body before it was taken away.

[Hartley]

There is such a conflict of interest, but he probably didn't have an active role in deliberating on this case.

Sheila's suicide was somewhat implausible if the police found her body and the rifle positioned as they described. If the photographs show their descriptions were significantly inaccurate, the true original positions of the body and gun when Sheila died are not known reliably, so that suicide remains plausible. If this matter were raised at an appeal hearing, the court could be asked to rule that the prosecution must release all the remaining photographs taken of Sheila's body before it was taken away.

Are you saying that the photographs indicate that suicide was implausible in any of the photographs currently available?

Seems a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, they need the withheld photograph (if it exists) to try force the release of evidence n court; but they need that photograph to get to court in the first place.

[bb2010]

If sheila was originally found on the bed, having committed suicide, (no photographic evidence so far) and the police moved the gun away from her body and tried recovering her (and failed) then it might have been simpler to restage her body on the floor (in a suicide position). i.e reflecting the suicide they initially thought had happenned (no thought of JB at this stage).

I wonder in what way the police tried to 'recover her'? did they do this on the bed? and since we're told how fresh the blood was, did any of it leak onto the bed?

And does the flow of the apparently fresh blood seem consistent with being moved from the bed to the floor as well as at some stage being perhaps put in the recovery position?

[Jackiepreece]

I don't know too much about forensics, withholding evidence etc but it does worry me that mike has said that he has actually said he gas seen the photo of Sheila on the bed along with ewen smith who is now commissioner with the ccrc.  Mike has also said he would be prepared to take a lie detector test to prove this.  Maybe I am naive but  I have no reason to think mike would lie about something like this.  If there is a photo where is it and what implications would it have on the case.

I think the above is what I read recently

[joolz1975]

If sheila was originally found on the bed, having committed suicide, (no photographic evidence so far) and the police moved the gun away from her body and tried recovering her (and failed) then it might have been simpler to restage her body on the floor (in a suicide position). i.e reflecting the suicide they initially thought had happenned (no thought of JB at this stage).

I wonder in what way the police tried to 'recover her'? did they do this on the bed? and since we're told how fresh the blood was, did any of it leak onto the bed?

And does the flow of the apparently fresh blood seem consistent with being moved from the bed to the floor as well as at some stage being perhaps put in the recovery position?

Thats a good point about the blood as any clots formed could have been disturbed when she was moved making the blood look fresher that it actually was.

[bb2010]

I guess I struggle to understand why the pattern of blood on Sheila in the photo's doesn't seem to match the amount of movement that she purportedly had either taken herself (to go upstairs) or allegedly movement caused by the police - movement from the bed/recovery position.

Could Sheila have merely been put on the bed prior to being put in a body bag? And therefore it could be one of the last photos taken on the day.

[Reader]

If Sheila had been lying in the kitchen for some time, her blood from the first wound could have congealed sufficiently not to drip while she went upstairs.

Bear in mind that (a) the jury weren't shown these particular photographs, and (b) if Sheila had been dead for about 5 hours, it would quickly be realized there was no possibility of reviving her. Moving the body from the bed to the floor could make sense if Sheila died after the police broke in. If the police moved her to the floor very shortly after the fatal shot, the amount of her blood on the bed would be limited.

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

Quote from Sleuthing for Justice  Mike Tesko on October 9, 2008

Essex police took a video of the scene at whf, but failed to bring this fact to the attention of Bamber, his legal team, or to the court, which tried him for these five murders..

The video recording has only very recently been obtained by the CCRC but Banber has been told that he will never get to see its contents.

What  documentary evidence are you referring to when you state that the CCRC have obtained the video recording?

Also what reasons, if any, did the CCRC give Bamber when he was told he would never be allowed to view the contents of the tape?

[bigpod]

If she had been dead for 6+ hours, would it have even been possible to change the arms and wrists as the photos show.