Author Topic: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?  (Read 51766 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2012, 11:33:PM »
Hi Steve_uk

One more before bedtime.  Of course it could be said that Jeremy murdered his family to fast forward a significant inheritance but there's actually no proof of this whatsoever.  Many children are due to inherit significant sums from their parents but those that kill are virtually unheard of.  I would suggest the reason it was/is believed that Jeremy killed his family is based on the simple fact that he was adopted.

No it's the various quotes from the protagonists in the case and has nothing to do with whether Jeremy was adopted or not. He told Goldsmiths student James Richards "I f***ing hate my parents" with vehemence on more than one occasion,which left such an impression on Mr. Richards that he was prepared to testify under oath at trial. Another independent witness Charles Marsden told of a conversation with Jeremy at Christmas 1984 whereby he speculated that if the farm burned down then everything would be his. Strange that this was the only occasion previous to August 1985 when the whole family was under one roof. He told Doris Foulkes that "I'm not sharing any of my money with Sheila",suggesting not just malice aforethought but that Jeremy had indeed seen the content of his parents' wills and worked out that he would be sharing his mother's estate with her and three other family members. There was Nevill's conversation with Barbara Wilson where he made her promise to try and maintain the farm should anything untoward happen to him,and the forecasting of his own death in a shooting accident. Most damning of all and the star witness was Julie Mugford,who indirectly confirmed all these individuals' suspicions with her testimony that over the last year Jeremy had been systematically devising different ways of killing his parents,including cyanide,drugging and finally shooting.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 11:34:PM by Steve_uk »

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2012, 11:37:PM »
My Christmas Card List 2012

Patti: an angel always singing from the same hymn sheet.

Colin Caffell: anything with a robin on.

Susan Ingham: a card with Dancer and Prancer.

Lookout: a bottle of Blue Nun,an umbrella to scare the crows away and a nodding donkey to agree wholeheartedly with whatever Mike says.

Naughty Nun: another bottle of Blue Nun which she can drink with the vicar in the sacristy,along with one of those dirty cards from Clinton's.

Rochford Dolly Peel: a Christmas cake with candied peel.

Rochford Dolly Parton: any card with two dumplings on.

Roch,Campion and Jim Ignatowski
: a card with the Three Wise Men.

June Bamber: a card with the Madonna and Child.

Jeremy Bamber: no card this year,just the money.

Mike: a card depicting children with lots of humbugs,a sleigh on the rear of which a sign  reading:"Pull the other one,it's got bells on.."

Members may add to the list where they think necessary.


Hahahahahaaa.

Offline maggie

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2012, 11:43:PM »
Thank God you weren't the third woman juror at Jeremy's trial. Jeremy bummed around Australia and New Zealand with Brett Collins,burgling a jewellers shop in the process and stealing two expensive watches. He came back to England and got a job at Little Chef off the A11 rather than associate with his obnoxious parents. He grew cannabis illicitly at Goldhanger to fund his £150 a time parties at Fifi's in Colchester,where he picked up girls serially to bring back to his rented Goldhanger cottage.He burgled the Osea Road Caravan park family business,scattering documents as red herrings in the office the way he did with Sheila in the master bedroom. Nevill foretold presciently his own death and did not live out the shooting season.
Steve, I object to that, to call Jeremy's parents obnoxious either from Jeremy's point of view or your own is so wrong.
I believe they did the very best for those children even if maybe they found the emotional side a bit difficult.  I think you are so unfair to the Bambers, they made every effort and gave love and care in most ways.  They were trying to help Sheila if they were speaking about some sort of day care fostering when Jeremy came in from the harvesting.  It sounds totally the normal conversation you'd expect in the circumstances at that time.  You can argue that Colin had custody of the children at that time but that would never stop Sheila's caring parents from trying to problem solve an answer for her.  Unfortunately, she wasn't really hearing it, imo she was already lost in her own misery and fantasy world, far beyond the kitchen in WHF....she was already gone steve...lost. imo

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2012, 11:53:PM »
Steve, I object to that, to call Jeremy's parents obnoxious either from Jeremy's point of view or your own is so wrong.
I believe they did the very best for those children even if maybe they found the emotional side a bit difficult.  I think you are so unfair to the Bambers, they made every effort and gave love and care in most ways.  They were trying to help Sheila if they were speaking about some sort of day care fostering when Jeremy came in from the harvesting.  It sounds totally the normal conversation you'd expect in the circumstances at that time.  You can argue that Colin had custody of the children at that time but that would never stop Sheila's caring parents from trying to problem solve an answer for her.  Unfortunately, she wasn't really hearing it, imo she was already lost in her own misery and fantasy world, far beyond the kitchen in WHF....she was already gone steve...lost. imo

Until you start to think like Jeremy you will never understand the raison d'etre for these crimes. Jeremy may have had a point that June was difficult to communicate with and they had reached a modus vivendi that last year of her life whereby as little conversation was entered into as possible. I think that Jeremy began to pity his parents at the end as June retreated into her own thoughts and Nevill became stressed as middle age took its toll. Sheila was balanced precariously on a knife edge,but never a vindictive bone in her body sorry to say for her detractors,she loved life too much to kill herself as related by Dr. Hugh Ferguson and the suggestion planted by Jeremy that Sheila was frightened of losing the twins through June's intervention was just one more in the line of stories spun by Jeremy that first morning at Bourtree Cottage.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 11:56:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline maggie

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2012, 12:12:AM »
Until you start to think like Jeremy you will never understand the raison d'etre for these crimes. Jeremy may have had a point that June was difficult to communicate with and they had reached a modus vivendi that last year of her life whereby as little conversation was entered into as possible. I think that Jeremy began to pity his parents at the end as June retreated into her own thoughts and Nevill became stressed as middle age took its toll. Sheila was balanced precariously on a knife edge,but never a vindictive bone in her body sorry to say for her detractors,she loved life too much to kill herself as related by Dr. Hugh Ferguson and the suggestion planted by Jeremy that Sheila was frightened of losing the twins through June's intervention was just one more in the line of stories spun by Jeremy that first morning at Bourtree Cottage.
Steve, you really have no reason or proof to write any of that, it is all surmise.  imo.  I have read that Jeremy and June were understanding each other better,.  I feel you like to take a moment in time and freeze it and then discuss it, bit like a few pages of Shakespeare etc. but in fact  they had a relationship as most people do which moved and changed all the time.  I also feel you have one weapon really and that weapon is adoption and the fact that because both children were adopted this in someway meant they were not emotionally involved with their parents.  I think this shows a massive lack of understanding.  I would think that whatever the feelings they presented to the world they were involved with their adopted parents.  They may have longed for more understanding and close contact.  They may have felt many things but do believe the one thing they did was love those parents even if it becomes confused by abandonment and longing for some promised land.  Too much assumption about adoption did colour this case in my opinion.  Most kids are just faced with what they have...adopted or not and in the end work it out.  Unfortunately they weren't allowed that luxury.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2012, 12:28:AM »
Steve, you really have no reason or proof to write any of that, it is all surmise.  imo.  I have read that Jeremy and June were understanding each other better,.  I feel you like to take a moment in time and freeze it and then discuss it, bit like a few pages of Shakespeare etc. but in fact  they had a relationship as most people do which moved and changed all the time.  I also feel you have one weapon really and that weapon is adoption and the fact that because both children were adopted this in someway meant they were not emotionally involved with their parents.  I think this shows a massive lack of understanding.  I would think that whatever the feelings they presented to the world they were involved with their adopted parents.  They may have longed for more understanding and close contact.  They may have felt many things but do believe the one thing they did was love those parents even if it becomes confused by abandonment and longing for some promised land.  Too much assumption about adoption did colour this case in my opinion.  Most kids are just faced with what they have...adopted or not and in the end work it out.  Unfortunately they weren't allowed that luxury.

Maggie I can't disprove what you say about adoption and maybe april1 will contribute more understanding to your post but I see Jeremy as an amalgam of Lee Harvey Oswald and Anders Breivik in that part of him was frozen,possibly through adoption,though I'm not sure whether he would ever have lived up to anyone's expectations,as his natural father Major Leslie Grantham would probably have wanted him to have followed the same military career,and let's face it you can't get much better preparation for that than Gresham's School. Sheila too found herself unable to live up to June's simple but strict expectations of a white wedding at Tolleshunt d'Arcy church and when she did not deliver June's retribution, subliminal or not was appropriately condign.

The irony was,of course at the end of their lives the parents had reached a modus vivendi with both children and June's frozenness had thawed,as evidenced by her heartfelt letter which Sheila never got to read,and which Jeremy just stuffed into the glove compartment of his car with the throwaway remark "I'm glad she's dead",the only other comment emanating from his untroubled conscience a remark about Nevill,that he "missed the old man occasionally".
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 12:39:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline maggie

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2012, 01:12:AM »
Maggie I can't disprove what you say about adoption and maybe april1 will contribute more understanding to your post but I see Jeremy as an amalgam of Lee Harvey Oswald and Anders Breivik in that part of him was frozen,possibly through adoption,though I'm not sure whether he would ever have lived up to anyone's expectations,as his natural father Major Leslie Grantham would probably have wanted him to have followed the same military career,and let's face it you can't get much better preparation for that than Gresham's School. Sheila too found herself unable to live up to June's simple but strict expectations of a white wedding at Tolleshunt d'Arcy church and when she did not deliver June's retribution, subliminal or not was appropriately condign.

The irony was,of course at the end of their lives the parents had reached a modus vivendi with both children and June's frozenness had thawed,as evidenced by her heartfelt letter which Sheila never got to read,and which Jeremy just stuffed into the glove compartment of his car with the throwaway remark "I'm glad she's dead",the only other comment emanating from his untroubled conscience a remark about Nevill,that he "missed the old man occasionally".
Steve, while you call on April to either agree or not with you, You miss one very important fact from my point of view.  I am the mother of two adopted children, therefore I am speaking from experience and actually Steve the reasons leading up to my adoption of children was very tough.  I am aware that is not the  most important part of the situation, I just resent the fact that either yourself or other people for whatever reason think they are in some way judge or jury of other people's experience of adoption.  It's hard for many, many reasons.  To blame Sheila and Jeremy's parents for perhaps not coming up to scratch.  To then praise her natural mother for at last turning up, to then blame her natural mother for having to for whatever reason give her up are all symptoms of the same  thing.   
Parents are what they are.  Some natural parents fail, some do ok with reservations and some are a total failure.  It's simply so unfair to judge any of the players in this because of where they found themselves because of events.  I find it almost impossible to believe Jeremy Bamber, an adopted and much loved son would have turned so particularly against the parents who at least tried to love him.  If he was severley disturbed by being adopted and psychopathic I would believe he would have been far more likely to seek out his natural family, after all they were the ones who wronged him and abandoned him don't let anyone beilieve anything else.  The anger is against the mother who for whatever reason gives up her child.  Why would either child blame the very people who tried to give them a home and a family?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2012, 01:42:AM »
Steve, while you call on April to either agree or not with you, You miss one very important fact from my point of view.  I am the mother of two adopted children, therefore I am speaking from experience and actually Steve the reasons leading up to my adoption of children was very tough.  I am aware that is not the  most important part of the situation, I just resent the fact that either yourself or other people for whatever reason think they are in some way judge or jury of other people's experience of adoption.  It's hard for many, many reasons.  To blame Sheila and Jeremy's parents for perhaps not coming up to scratch.  To then praise her natural mother for at last turning up, to then blame her natural mother for having to for whatever reason give her up are all symptoms of the same  thing.   
Parents are what they are.  Some natural parents fail, some do ok with reservations and some are a total failure.  It's simply so unfair to judge any of the players in this because of where they found themselves because of events.  I find it almost impossible to believe Jeremy Bamber, an adopted and much loved son would have turned so particularly against the parents who at least tried to love him.  If he was severley disturbed by being adopted and psychopathic I would believe he would have been far more likely to seek out his natural family, after all they were the ones who wronged him and abandoned him don't let anyone beilieve anything else.  The anger is against the mother who for whatever reason gives up her child.  Why would either child blame the very people who tried to give them a home and a family?

I don't really see how this is relevant to my posts. I have never blamed Nevill and June for their treatment of Jeremy and Sheila,apart from the fact they could have possibly explained better the reason why they sent them to boarding school at such an early age. June herself was afflicted with mental health issues which meant that the burden of parentage fell more upon Nevill than other fathers,and considering he had a difficult job in farming he worked wonders with Sheila,calming her instantaneously from the psychosis she worked herself up into in London,and spending hours chatting to her on the telephone from her Maida Vale flat. These were acts of a father who went beyond the call of duty. Even Nevill's will showed that he chose Jeremy to work the farm provided he could prove himself worthy of it,which was only fair given the responsibility it entailed. June had stopped trying to preach to her children and accepted them as they were, we know she felt remorseful for her past mistakes calling Sheila the "Devil's child" and Jeremy's girlfriend a "harlot",though it was too late to mend the bridges between herself and Jeremy simply through a heartfelt letter to be opened after her death. Sheila's relationship with her mother at the end remains a mystery;depending on your point of view she either shot her through love or hate,or she reconciled herself to God loving her even if her mother did not. This was the cruel irony at White House Farm:at the very stage in their lives when the parents had accepted the modern ways of their children and had more or less acceded to their every whim they were cruelly gunned down,as the Ghost of Christmas Past reared its ugly head and the modus vivendi which had taken shape was shattered.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 01:44:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jane

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2012, 08:11:AM »
Maggie I can't disprove what you say about adoption and maybe april1 will contribute more understanding to your post but I see Jeremy as an amalgam of Lee Harvey Oswald and Anders Breivik in that part of him was frozen,possibly through adoption,though I'm not sure whether he would ever have lived up to anyone's expectations,as his natural father Major Leslie Grantham would probably have wanted him to have followed the same military career,and let's face it you can't get much better preparation for that than Gresham's School. Sheila too found herself unable to live up to June's simple but strict expectations of a white wedding at Tolleshunt d'Arcy church and when she did not deliver June's retribution, subliminal or not was appropriately condign.

The irony was,of course at the end of their lives the parents had reached a modus vivendi with both children and June's frozenness had thawed,as evidenced by her heartfelt letter which Sheila never got to read,and which Jeremy just stuffed into the glove compartment of his car with the throwaway remark "I'm glad she's dead",the only other comment emanating from his untroubled conscience a remark about Nevill,that he "missed the old man occasionally".
Steve, while you call on April to either agree or not with you, You miss one very important fact from my point of view.  I am the mother of two adopted children, therefore I am speaking from experience and actually Steve the reasons leading up to my adoption of children was very tough.  I am aware that is not the  most important part of the situation, I just resent the fact that either yourself or other people for whatever reason think they are in some way judge or jury of other people's experience of adoption.  It's hard for many, many reasons.  To blame Sheila and Jeremy's parents for perhaps not coming up to scratch.  To then praise her natural mother for at last turning up, to then blame her natural mother for having to for whatever reason give her up are all symptoms of the same  thing.   
Parents are what they are.  Some natural parents fail, some do ok with reservations and some are a total failure.  It's simply so unfair to judge any of the players in this because of where they found themselves because of events.  I find it almost impossible to believe Jeremy Bamber, an adopted and much loved son would have turned so particularly against the parents who at least tried to love him.  If he was severley disturbed by being adopted and psychopathic I would believe he would have been far more likely to seek out his natural family, after all they were the ones who wronged him and abandoned him don't let anyone beilieve anything else.  The anger is against the mother who for whatever reason gives up her child.  Why would either child blame the very people who tried to give them a home and a family?


Steve, I believe that Maggie's experience of adoption are far closer to what is "good enough" than my own. You'll find better insight to my childhood experiences from the pages of "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit". You will note that I use the expression "good enough" Whilst you will probably dismiss it as "psychobabble", it expresses how relationships need to function in order to maintain reasonable harmony. It is a delicate balancing act.

Whether or not adoption is part of the equation, ALL parent/children/adult relationships are problematic at times. When this basic fact is denied, somone is not telling the truth, someone is subjugating their own needs for those of another on too regular a basis. The more intimate and honest the relationship, the more likely it is that there will be disagreements.

It seems to me that more problems are caused by peoples' intractable mind sets and expectations of their children, than are caused by adoption. I have experienced mothers in tears because their children have not fulfilled certain expectations. Sons who do well at grammer schools aren't supposed to end up driving lorries, happy and content. They're supposed to go on to university and enter a profession, even if it makes them miserable. This is the lifestyle parents map out for their offspring probably without ever discussing it with the child. It has little or nothing to do with adoption. Of the adopted parent who force a child to live their expectations for it, it is the inflexible mind set which is the problem, rather than the adoption.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #144 on: December 11, 2012, 04:48:PM »
Maggie I can't disprove what you say about adoption and maybe april1 will contribute more understanding to your post but I see Jeremy as an amalgam of Lee Harvey Oswald and Anders Breivik in that part of him was frozen,possibly through adoption,though I'm not sure whether he would ever have lived up to anyone's expectations,as his natural father Major Leslie Grantham would probably have wanted him to have followed the same military career,and let's face it you can't get much better preparation for that than Gresham's School. Sheila too found herself unable to live up to June's simple but strict expectations of a white wedding at Tolleshunt d'Arcy church and when she did not deliver June's retribution, subliminal or not was appropriately condign.

The irony was,of course at the end of their lives the parents had reached a modus vivendi with both children and June's frozenness had thawed,as evidenced by her heartfelt letter which Sheila never got to read,and which Jeremy just stuffed into the glove compartment of his car with the throwaway remark "I'm glad she's dead",the only other comment emanating from his untroubled conscience a remark about Nevill,that he "missed the old man occasionally".

Hi Steve_uk

You are funny...where did you get "Major Leslie Grantham" from?  Too much East Enders I suspect  ;D ;D ;D.  Jeremy's birth father is Major Leslie Bertie Fitzroy Marsham unless you know something different  :-\



« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 06:07:PM by Naughty Nun »

Offline HMEssex

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2012, 09:28:PM »
Hi Steve_uk

You are funny...where did you get "Major Leslie Grantham" from?  Too much East Enders I suspect  ;D ;D ;D.  Jeremy's birth father is Major Leslie Bertie Fitzroy Marsham unless you know something different  :-\




Exactly what I was thinking!

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #146 on: December 11, 2012, 09:33:PM »
Hi Steve_uk

You are funny...where did you get "Major Leslie Grantham" from?  Too much East Enders I suspect  ;D ;D ;D.  Jeremy's birth father is Major Leslie Bertie Fitzroy Marsham unless you know something different  :-\

Point taken,but you miss the point about Gresham's being the perfect launch pad for a career in the military. Are you egap1 reincarnated by any chance..

Offline campion

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #147 on: December 11, 2012, 10:52:PM »
  I wonder why Stevie Wonders why egap1, may be reincarnated. One finds this wonder distasteful.
  Is it that our Steve is Spiritual? Heaven knows.

Offline campion

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2012, 11:06:PM »
  David, is that you. Are you suffering under the ill usion of Cuckoophobia?

Offline campion

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Re: Did Brett Collins stand by Jeremy?
« Reply #149 on: December 12, 2012, 09:32:AM »
  The Key Receipts.

  Scene :- Darkest Africa, up the ZambeZi,
              ... and Stanley(not Jones) says :- '' Dr Livingstone, I presume?''

  Scene :- Tolleshunt Darcy, Whitehouse Farm'
              ... and David says :-  ''Look at what I've found, Everybody!''