PV's Bullet Weights, Fletcher and Vanezes

[Patti]

What of the 12 bore shotgun with Sheilas' fingerprints on it ?.  Something else that wasn't presented at trial.
According to Scott Lomax,,Sheila had arrived at WHF on the 4th of August,,with the shootings which took place on the 6th/7th,,would have shown that Sheila had only recently handled it. To which the prosecution and its enterage would have immediately said that Sheila wouldn't have handled it. What more proof would they have needed ?
The 12 bore could easily have been the first weapon that Sheila got hold of because Neville had only mentioned,, the gun,,in his phone-call,,so the fact that he hadn't mentioned which gun,,amongst what was kept at the farmhouse,,proves that Neville called.

Shotgun/rifle. Is there such a big difference ? We don't know if the shotgun was used initially,,but if so,,would this be a cause of a fractured bullet ?

Hi Lookout, I have thought of this before.....Would Neville had said gun or rifle?  I'm off to watch Panorama. Speak soon...X

[Patti]

Reader thank you...I will get back to you at a later date. Might be tomorrow I have the day off...

Hi Reader

Fletcher says PV/3 was nearly whole.

[JackAll]

I find it fascinating at the very least and unbelieveable at most; that the socos and forensic personnel have not positively specified the actual calibre of all the bullets................as far as they are concerned they are just .22 LR 'although some may be different'.......Total rubbish ballistics and firearms forensics (IMO)

For a bullet to be a .22 it can be anything from .21 (an Armalite, capable of taking someone's head off at 600m yards) through .22 (air rifle calibres can be .22 but 5.5mm or 5.6mm) to .23 (fairground rifles like the Winchester pump) and .24 up to .25..........

Just put '22 rimfire ammo' into a Google Images search to see what is and was available.

If you want to see the law as it was in 2002 (2013 is now available) here is a link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2002

If a shotgun had been used on any of the victims it would have to have been a solid slug otherwise there would be numerous small pieces of 'shot' (lead balls) in the wound (at close range or all over the room at a greater range).......

Solid slug ammunition is not available in the UK*** as it warrants an FAC; however several enthusiasts load their own as solid slug and are properly FAC registered.

***Certain 'specialists' (Crown Servants) are permitted and it is specially manufactured for their use as are other specialist rounds.

Depending on cartridge size, there could be anything from 100 - 500 pieces of shot in one cartridge (I'm using those figures as a guide because there are many cartridge variations)......

On top of all that, there would have been evidence of a wad (a plastic or fibre packing between the propellant and the load, whether it is shot or solid slug) at close range that could well enter the wound as well.

Furthermore a shotgun discharge is significantly louder than a .22 rifle and it would almost certainly have been heard.........silencers are rare on shotguns and full barrel length moderators tend to be used if the need arises.

I have some cartridges here which are for 12 bore use, 00 buckshot 9 balls per cartridge.....one would probably have removed the best part of SB/C's head if fired immediately under the chin, as would many of the other cartridges.

At the time of the WHF incident, multi-shot shotguns were common and could be semi-auto or pump action, holding up to nine rounds........

Jack

[Patti]

I find it fascinating at the very least and unbelieveable at most; that the socos and forensic personnel have not positively specified the actual calibre of all the bullets................as far as they are concerned they are just .22 LR 'although some may be different'.......Total rubbish ballistics and firearms forensics (IMO)

For a bullet to be a .22 it can be anything from .21 (an Armalite, capable of taking someone's head off at 600m yards) through .22 (air rifle calibres can be .22 but 5.5mm or 5.6mm) to .23 (fairground rifles like the Winchester pump) and .24 up to .25..........

Just put '22 rimfire ammo' into a Google Images search to see what is and was available.

If you want to see the law as it was in 2002 (2013 is now available) here is a link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2002

If a shotgun had been used on any of the victims it would have to have been a solid slug otherwise there would be numerous small pieces of 'shot' (lead balls) in the wound (at close range or all over the room at a greater range).......

Solid slug ammunition is not available in the UK*** as it warrants an FAC; however several enthusiasts load their own as solid slug and are properly FAC registered.

***Certain 'specialists' (Crown Servants) are permitted and it is specially manufactured for their use as are other specialist rounds.

Depending on cartridge size, there could be anything from 100 - 500 pieces of shot in one cartridge (I'm using those figures as a guide because there are many cartridge variations)......

On top of all that, there would have been evidence of a wad (a plastic or fibre packing between the propellant and the load, whether it is shot or solid slug) at close range that could well enter the wound as well.

Furthermore a shotgun discharge is significantly louder than a .22 rifle and it would almost certainly have been heard.........silencers are rare on shotguns and full barrel length moderators tend to be used if the need arises.

I have some cartridges here which are for 12 bore use, 00 buckshot 9 balls per cartridge.....one would probably have removed the best part of SB/C's head if fired immediately under the chin, as would many of the other cartridges.

At the time of the WHF incident, multi-shot shotguns were common and could be semi-auto or pump action, holding up to nine rounds........

Jack

Fletcher could only determine some of the bullets were suggestive from rifle 18.  Others were either fragmented or so distorted it impossible to tell. 

The only reference to a shotgun going off was from a witness who claimed to have heard shot gun fire between the 10pm and 10:30. 

I would think that today ballistics would be more advanced than they were back in 1985/6 Although, the problem of a new ballistics reports would be hampered by the fact that this evidence might have been destroyed in 1996.

Take a look at this. 

[JackAll]

What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....

....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....

No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.

A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..

[lookout]

What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....

....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....

No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.

A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..

So,,as I said earlier,,if forensic photograhpy had been used to examine the wounds on Sheilas' neck,,then they would have been able to see that two different bullets had been used because of the " pattern " of entry each one would have made.

[Patti]

What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....

....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....

No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.

A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..

Hi Jack

Something tells me that NB only had 7 wounds and not 8.  One of the fragments found must have belonged to one of the 7 shots he sustained.  The weights are on a different document. This of course is an assumption on my part.  The bullet from exit would to his left arm must be upstairs in the main bedroom. 

[Patti]

Arrrrrrrrr Fletcher says in his report above that 3 of the whole lose bullets found in the main bedroom must have come from June and the remaining bullet must have been from the exit wound to Neville's left arm...The killer being stood behind him at the time he was shot in the arm and shoulder. Both were downward shots....So, then this must mean that NB was either sitting, bending or in a lower position to the killer and not on the stairs....only one case shell on the stairs. so the shoulder shot was from behind as NB was making his way down stairs.   

[Alias]

Arrrrrrrrr Fletcher says in his report above that 3 of the whole lose bullets found in the main bedroom must have come from June and the remaining bullet must have been from the exit wound to Neville's left arm...The killer being stood behind him at the time he was shot in the arm and shoulder. Both were downward shots....So, then this must mean that NB was either sitting, bending or in a lower position to the killer and not on the stairs....only one case shell on the stairs. so the shoulder shot was from behind as NB was making his way down stairs.   

This doesn´t indicate that the shooter was experienced, does it? Shooting the arm and shoulder. Also it took so many shots to each of the victims.

[Patti]

This doesn´t indicate that the shooter was experienced, does it? Shooting the arm and shoulder. Also it took so many shots to each of the victims.

Hey Alias.. No it doesn't.  To me its clumsy shooting. If NB was going down stairs then the killer must have been worried about him getting to the phone. In order to stop him, you would have thought a good shot would have stopped him in his tracks there and then.....

[lookout]

Hey Alias.. No it doesn't.  To me its clumsy shooting. If NB was going down stairs then the killer must have been worried about him getting to the phone. In order to stop him, you would have thought a good shot would have stopped him in his tracks there and then.....

Patti,,would Neville have unplugged the phone from the bedroom as he may have tried to use it there,,then was carting it downstairs with him to use in the kitchen and getting shot at at the same time,and poked in the neck from behind ?
There must have been an unholy row going on upstairs as well as downstairs. If anyone had intentions of killing/murdering,they'd have done it in one fell swoop as they all lay in their beds,,not spent half the night arguing.

[Patti]

Patti,,would Neville have unplugged the phone from the bedroom as he may have tried to use it there,,then was carting it downstairs with him to use in the kitchen and getting shot at at the same time,and poked in the neck from behind ?
There must have been an unholy row going on upstairs as well as downstairs. If anyone had intentions of killing/murdering,they'd have done it in one fell swoop as they all lay in their beds,,not spent half the night arguing.

Hi Lookout

I wouldn't have thought so for a couple of reasons.  Neville had already been shot 4 times before he reached the kitchen.  The other thing is that there were no blood on the phone and if he had already been shot he would not have been able to speak to Jeremy.....

[lookout]

Hi Lookout

I wouldn't have thought so for a couple of reasons.  Neville had already been shot 4 times before he reached the kitchen.  The other thing is that there were no blood on the phone and if he had already been shot he would not have been able to speak to Jeremy.....

Would it not have depended on whereabouts on his body those 4 shots went ?

[Patti]

Would it not have depended on whereabouts on his body those 4 shots went ?

Well yeah, but he was shot twice in the jaw, once in his left shoulder and his left arm.  Surely some blood would have got on the phone, dontcha think? One of the bullets that he sustained went into his lyrax so he was unable to speak.....

Again we have a situation that in hindsight, the scenes of crime officers should have checked the phone for fingerprints....If they had done this and at this point they did have reason to do it, because Jeremy told them from the onset that he had received a call from his father. If only they had done this, we might not be here today.....eh\? 

[grahameb]

This doesn´t indicate that the shooter was experienced, does it? Shooting the arm and shoulder. Also it took so many shots to each of the victims.

I would think that if the shooter was experience less bullets would have been used? This bloodbath was created by someone in a rage. Or in some kind of psychotic fit.