Rucked up nightdress beneath Sheila's stage managed body...

[Steve_uk]

Hi Maggie/lookout/april1  I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up.  When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need.  I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her.  Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour.  Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.

Some good points there but haven't you heard the expression "love is blind"? As for Jeremy not saying a word against her,of course he can't without incriminating himself..this has also been dealt with by myself elsewhere..

[lookout]

She was in love with him Lookout..haven't we all fallen in love with someone at some stage of our lives and thought that that person could do no wrong..she let herself be lulled by Jeremy's talk that he was doing everyone a favour,whilst probably not taking him seriously. Of course she should have informed the Police beforehand,but sometimes young people and old for that matter make the crassest decisions whilst under the spell of another human being.

Steve,,that's as maybe,,but it still doesn't alter the fact that she was the dominant one,,who probably stamped her feet if she didn't get her own way. Jeremy was an easy catch who probably put up with a lot to keep the peace. You've only to see what happened when he didn't want her any more.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,,I do believe that JM would NOT have said a word had she still been going out with him. They were both money-orientated young people at that time.
So why did JM suddenly spill out all the dirty laundry.?

[Jane]

Steve, I know all about Grammer schools and degrees at that time, I was one of the so called elite myself.......not a good system.   I love your phrase 'dazzled by his cruel handsomeness'...I fear you've read too many Mills and Boon books for your own good. 

Maggie, I was just about to say "Come back, Barbara Cartland, all is forgiven"!!!!!!

[maggie]

Some good points there but haven't you heard the expression "love is blind"? As for Jeremy not saying a word against her,of course he can't without incriminating himself..this has also been dealt with by myself elsewhere..

I must say susie, you do have a point,  have wondereda myself aebout this. It is possible enough as it is reckoned that up to 1 in 25 people have psychopthic characteristics.  She certainley behaved very strangely at times and it would answer the often asked question a to how she could condemn Jeremy to prison for the rest of his life, when he was innocent.  It wouldn't matter to her......without a conscience nothing much about it would bother her.

[maggie]

I never once suggested that it did. 

I know Hartley, sorry. :D

[Roch]

You do not need to interview a witness over 30 times so that you can coach her on what to say, if what she claims Jeremy told her was true. You interview and coach someome like Muggy because she knows nothing, was told nothin and there is no independant evidence to back up anything she has ever said or continues to say - if I am erong, five innocent people were shot and killed because Muggy acted criminally. She conspired with Jeremy to kill everyone, including two little sweet / innocent children - she was / is an evil bitch, murderess (if anything she said or says was/is true? The fa t that she didn't even get arrested and interviewed under caution, let alone stand trial and be aquitted tells its own story...

She lied. and DS  Jones filled her head full of shit, she would have and did say anything that bent copper wanted / needed her to say...

Although this is worded quite bluntly, I am inclined towards this view also.

[susan]

yes steve I have heard the expression love is blind but that does not make it right to try and smother your partner so nobody else can have him.  Also could you indentify two little boys and not show the slightest bit of emotion I can get emotional even thinking about it.  I think Julie was quite a hard young lady and don't want to cast too many aspersions as I have never met her and that would be very unfair of me but I cannot come to terms with her having an intimate relationship with a man for a further 4 weeks if I knew he had murdered his family and two of them being little boys and I had actually seen them in the mortuary I don't care how blind love is it is not that blind unless of course you are a psychopath without feelings or emotion.

[maggie]

Maggie, I was just about to say "Come back, Barbara Cartland, all is forgiven"!!!!!!

Great minds April

[Roch]

She was dazzled by Jeremy, his cruel handsomeness....

Steve, you should write for Mills & Boon.

[Steve_uk]

Steve,,that's as maybe,,but it still doesn't alter the fact that she was the dominant one,,who probably stamped her feet if she didn't get her own way. Jeremy was an easy catch who probably put up with a lot to keep the peace. You've only to see what happened when he didn't want her any more.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,,I do believe that JM would NOT have said a word had she still been going out with him. They were both money-orientated young people at that time.
So why did JM suddenly spill out all the dirty laundry.?

I would be the first to agree that there may be more to Julie's role in this than has come out and that she had a difficult tightrope to walk in court to portray Jeremy as a mass murderer whilst keeping herself out of becoming an accessory after the fact. I'm quite prepared to accept that she may have covered up the whole thing had she married him,and of course having been married there would in all likelihood have been no case as married women cannot testify against their husbands. It just strikes me that there was too much detail in her statements about Jeremy's plot to burn down the house,the fact that the Bambers were underinsured,the sleeping tablets evidence,the excuse that Julie needed a bicycle to cycle to the station which in turn gave him a pretext for keeping a woman's bicycle at Goldhanger..as I say on the balance of probabilities I consider the case to have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[Steve_uk]

yes steve I have heard the expression love is blind but that does not make it right to try and smother your partner so nobody else can have him.  Also could you indentify two little boys and not show the slightest bit of emotion I can get emotional even thinking about it.  I think Julie was quite a hard young lady and don't want to cast too many aspersions as I have never met her and that would be very unfair of me but I cannot come to terms with her having an intimate relationship with a man for a further 4 weeks if I knew he had murdered his family and two of them being little boys and I had actually seen them in the mortuary I don't care how blind love is it is not that blind unless of course you are a psychopath without feelings or emotion.

There may well be some truth in that Susan;of course if Julie loved Jeremy at that moment then she would volunteer to identify bodies he stated he did not wish to identify,and yes she would have had to be cold blooded not to show emotion,even if she had no personal link to the victims. Of course some of this is speculation which is why I don't mind trawling through Mike's evidence however ridiculous an interpretation may arise from it. Going back to the forensics is it true that one of the twins was shot in an arc pattern of bullets,and would this really be symptomatic of a woman who was under the influence of her psychiatric illness?

[lookout]

Hi Maggie/lookout/april1  I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up.  When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need.  I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her.  Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour.  Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.

Susan,,I've given that a lot of thought about JM. She really gave the impression of a very cold person,,,and even when I first saw a picture of her,I took an instant dislike at just seeing her face,,and I don't even know the woman,,but my guess at that time of the murders,that her heart was solid stone.
In fact,,if it had been in the media that she'd committed those murders,,then I wouldn't have been surprised.
How on earth she could have gone to the mortuary,,just like that,,,I'll never know. I used to see deceased children of all ages,,and I probably cried at each of their deaths. It's not something that you opt to choose to do unless it's your job.
Something radically wrong somewhere,Susan.

[Jane]

Hi Maggie/lookout/april1  I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up.  When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need.  I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her.  Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour.  Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.

So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.

[maggie]

Susan,,I've given that a lot of thought about JM. She really gave the impression of a very cold person,,,and even when I first saw a picture of her,I took an instant dislike at just seeing her face,,and I don't even know the woman,,but my guess at that time of the murders,that her heart was solid stone.
In fact,,if it had been in the media that she'd committed those murders,,then I wouldn't have been surprised.
How on earth she could have gone to the mortuary,,just like that,,,I'll never know. I used to see deceased children of all ages,,and I probably cried at each of their deaths. It's not something that you opt to choose to do unless it's your job.
Something radically wrong somewhere,Susan.

I do agree susie/lookout

[Steve_uk]

So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.

Yet this clandestine psychopath is now a pillar of the Winnepeg community,on many occasions going beyond the call of duty in her job and freely giving of her time and efforts. Jeremy was nobody's fool,but he liked a stronger woman,preferring a maternal figure whom he could hug rather than the act of sexual penetration itself. Maybe Julie had the intelligence to see that this was the way to his heart. Nobody is claiming that Julie Mugford was an angel,but unless you crack her testimony with facts not supposition Jeremy will be spending his next 27 years in a similar way to the first 27.