Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[mike tesko]

Thank you Mike. It does beg the question  Do bullets become heavy when fired? I will do a bit of googling....the only other answer of course, is that different bullets were used...? 

The other interesting thing about some of the heavier bullets, is that when DCI "Taff" Jones, and DS "Stan" Jones, went to see Jeremy at his cottage on the afternoon of 9th August, 1985, they not only spoke to him about whether or not the silencer was fitted to the guns barrel on the evening before the shootings (6th August 1985) but they questioned him about where five of the 25 bullets had originated from?  This came about because Jeremy told police that he obtained a full box of .22 ammunition from which he proceeded to load up the magazine of the rifle on that occasion. Police said to Jeremy that each box of ammunition contained 50 rounds and that only 20 were missing from the tipped out box on the kitchen worktop. Jeremy told them there must have already been some bullets in the magazine, and the police accepted that the additional five they were interested in, must have already been in the magazine of the gun before Jeremy loaded it up to the max on the evening before the shootings?

Another interesting feature was / is that five of the bullet cases, showed evidence that they had been loaded twice into the magazine of the rifle (Y) - these five bullet cases had double magazine marks and only one set of firing pin and ejection / extraction marks...

[Bridget]

Yeah, I was wrong in suggesting the manufacturers bullet weight specification was 2.26gram, because it is 2.27gram...

I'll let you off the 0.01g, if you tell me why you think some are heavier

[mike tesko]

I'll let you off the 0.01g, if you tell me why you think some are heavier

Two possibilities:-

(1) - bullets originated from a different batch of .22 ammunition than Eley .22LR subsonic
(2) - bullets collected debri when entering body and were not washed when weighed...

[Patti]

Were they hollow or solid bullets?

[mike tesko]

Were they hollow or solid bullets?

The ballistic experts, Malcom Fletcher, and D. Taylor, did not differentiate the type of .22 bullets to that / this extent -  see general examination records for confirmation of this...

Please visit:-

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

[Patti]

The ballistic experts, Malcom Fletcher, and D. Taylor, did not differentiate the type of .22 bullets to that / this extent -  see general examination records for confirmation of this...

Please visit:-

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

Mike I have a strong feeling that these are either exit bullets or missed bullets. The bullets have to weigh lighter, because it loses the outer brass case...Fletcher can't be sure that two of the bullets came from wounds....if this is the case then we might have bullets that missed their target...at close range...

[mike tesko]

Mike I have a strong feeling that these are either exit bullets or missed bullets. The bullets have to weigh lighter, because it loses the outer brass case...Fletcher can't be sure that two of the bullets came from wounds....if this is the case then we might have bullets that missed their target...at close range...

The information I have received / obtained suggests that the specified manufacturers bullet weights relate only to the bullet head, not to the bullet consisting of bullet head and case, along with its component parts...

[Bridget]

Mike I have a strong feeling that these are either exit bullets or missed bullets. The bullets have to weigh lighter, because it loses the outer brass case...Fletcher can't be sure that two of the bullets came from wounds....if this is the case then we might have bullets that missed their target...at close range...

Isn't mike talking about the lead bit, rather than the whole thing including the case? Any of the other bullets could have also originally weighed 2.42 as well I suppose. Not sure where any of this gets us!

[mike tesko]

Isn't mike talking about the lead bit, rather than the whole thing including the case? Any of the other bullets could have also originally weighed 2.42 as well I suppose. Not sure where any of this gets us!

Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point ammunition weighed in  at 2.27 grams according to the manufacturers weight specification chart, yet five of the 25 crime scene bullets weighed too much to have originated from such a batch, and another seven weighed to little (all described as being whole in nature). That is a total of 12 bullets out of 25 that do not fit the manufacturers weight specification for Eley .22LR subsonic ammunition - which in turn leaves around 13 bullets which could have originated from the relevant batch...

[mike tesko]

Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point ammunition weighed in  at 2.27 grams according to the manufacturers weight specification chart, yet five of the 25 crime scene bullets weighed too much to have originated from such a batch, and another seven weighed to little (all described as being whole in nature). That is a total of 12 bullets out of 25 that do not fit the manufacturers weight specification for Eley .22LR subsonic ammunition - which in turn leaves around 13 bullets which could have originated from the relevant batch...

Bullet PV/20 is one of the 12 bullets which falls into the category that could not  have originated from the batch of Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point ammunition, because it was too light which effects the statistics because the original (PV/20) was substituted making the ratio 11 / 14...

This is where the analysis starts to get very interesting...

[Patti]

Isn't mike talking about the lead bit, rather than the whole thing including the case? Any of the other bullets could have also originally weighed 2.42 as well I suppose. Not sure where any of this gets us!

A solid whole bullet weighs in at about 2.50 which would make more sense....than a 2.27 hollow one. Maybe some were solid...

Sad about Paula Radcliffe Anther hankie wet through...aww 

[mike tesko]

Bullet PV/20 is one of the 12 bullets which falls into the category that could not  have originated from the batch of Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point ammunition, because it was too light which effects the statistics because the original (PV/20) was substituted making the ratio 11 / 14...

This is where the analysis starts to get very interesting...

At this stage - enter into the fray 14 bullet cases held at the lab' under the identifying mark of MDF/100 (14 spent cartridge cases)?

[mike tesko]

If anyone is really interested, check the type of bullets mentioned in each of the individual general examination records, and you will see that none of them are referred to as .22 LR subsonic hollow point rounds, or bullets, or whatever...

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

[mike tesko]

If anyone is really interested, check the type of bullets mentioned in each of the individual general examination records, and you will see that none of them are referred to as .22 LR subsonic hollow point rounds, or bullets, or whatever...

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

How strange that the ballistic  expert does not identify any of the 25 bullets which formed part of the crime scene batch of ammunition, as Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point ammunition - what kind of an expert was he then?

[-Harters-]

A solid whole bullet weighs in at about 2.50 which would make more sense....than a 2.27 hollow one. Maybe some were solid...

Sad about Paula Radcliffe Anther hankie wet through...aww 

A modern day Eley hollow point Xtra and Xtra Plus weighs 2.43g and 2.59g respectively.

I have searched for a lighter round before, but other than on websites associated with this case I've never seen reference to one, perhaps manufacturing spec has changed over the years.