The Firearm

[Kaldin]

Did nobody ask about this cartridge case at the time? It seems to me that a lot of the evidence was totally ignored by both the prosecution and the defence.

[simong]

Hi Mike,

The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'

So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.

Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?

If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.

[Kaldin]

Hi Mike,

The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'

So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.

Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?

If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.

He was wearing pyjamas and I haven't seen it mentioned that the burn marks were also on those.

Maybe the burn marks were previous injuries. It seems to be an issue which was skipped over a bit.

[mike tesko]

Hi Mike,

The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'

So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.

Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?

If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.

-------------------------------------------

End of silencer would not get that hot...

marks found on the back of Ralph's neck, were described as being circular, two circular marks, one atop the other, one of these circular marks which measured 1/2 inch in diameter, had another inner circle mark measuring 1/4/ inch in diameter, inside it, beneath which was another circular mark measuring 1/2 inch or there abouts...

I think these may have been bruises, rather than burn marks, where someone has thrust the weapon into the back of the neck, in a sort of prodding fashion, which could have been made after Ralph had been shot and killed in the kitchen...

Weapon which made these marks has never been found or identified...

[mike tesko]

Hi Mike,

The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'

So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.

Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?

If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.

He was wearing pyjamas and I haven't seen it mentioned that the burn marks were also on those.

Maybe the burn marks were previous injuries. It seems to be an issue which was skipped over a bit.

-------------------------------------

No corresponding circular marks on the pajamas

[mb1]

SimonG - or anyone else in the know - did the pathologist say circular marks, bruises or burns?

Two marks - could Neville have been gun-prodded both up and down the stairs? Which order? Upstairs first - hence no commotion his side of the bed to match that on June's side. Mayhem up there. Then down the stairs, perhaps to make a call?

One other question - perhaps it should be a new thread. I'm assuming the police stationed officers all around the house so that no-one could come out unnoticed. By what time had this been achieved? 

[simong]

From the 2002 Appeal

The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.

[mb1]

3 marks...

Or 3 big prods on 1 stair journey - getting tired so not seeing obvious!

[bob]

Sorry Kaldin if I've failed to make things clear.

An automatic rifle reloads itself and ejects the spent cartridge when it is fired. The Bamber gun was semi automatic which meant, after it is fired, the empty case remains in the breech until the operator manually pulls back the bolt, at which point the spent case is ejected, prior to then pushing the bolt forward to reload for the next shot thus bringing another bullet up from the magazine and simultaneously cocking the trigger. In effect the empty cases are not ejected where the shot has been fired with a semi automatic. I'm sure you will have seen this action on TV and heard the distinctive sound. Mike

Mike - you seem to be describing a repeating rifle not a semi-automatic one. A semi-automatic rifle ejects the casing as a result of firing, and is then imediately available for firing by pulling the trigger without any further manual intervention.

[simong]

Hi Mike,

The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'

So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.

Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?

If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.

It does point to him being forced to hand over something, or maybe make a phone call?

Defending Jeremy here,  he doesn't have to force Nevill to make a call. He simply could ring his house himself. Not sure if that was what you meant by the phone call.

[interested]

I take it that the suicide was doubted because of the length of the gun? (i.e. not being able to fit it to her neck while pulling the trigger.)  Would it not be possible to use your toe instead. - If you were bare footed and in a seated position for example?  Sorry if this has already been suggested, just arrived at the site tonight and currently still reading through.  I suppose it would seem like a strange place to try and shoot yourself - In the neck. But if you were pulling the trigger with your toe it would make sense.  Either that or even in her crazed state she still had concerns about preserving her asset (her pretty face). 

[andrea]

hi interested. yes it is possible sheila could have shot herself the way you described, there were experiments done using the same type of gun, and a female model who was the same height as sheila etc, and yes it could have been possible.

[Kaldin]

She could have reached if the silencer wasn't on the gun. That's why the silencer is such an issue. If the one in the cupboard was used, who put it there? The prosecution said Jeremy shot everyone with the silencer on, but then realised that Sheila couldn't have reached so he took it off and put it away in the cupboard.

[andrea]

why would he put it back in the cupboard, i would have thought he would have taken the silencer with him when he left the house and then get rid of it altogether.

[Newbury1]

why would he put it back in the cupboard, i would have thought he would have taken the silencer with him when he left the house and then get rid of it altogether.

I quite agree, JB would have either taken it with him or left it unscrewed by her side.

After all we are lead to believe by the prosecution that he was clever enough to leave the building through a small window leaving no blood traces on the exit surfaces/window/outside and then got rid of all his bloody clothing so that no item was ever found.

The circular burn marks on Nevills back indicate to me that there was a weapon used without a silencer fitted