Author Topic: Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...  (Read 52871 times)

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Offline Moe Cassani

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Of course the Jeremy supporters have to say that the Police moved the body,as evidence from forensic pathologist Dr. Martyn Ismail in 2002 suggests that Sheila was shot with her head propped up against the bedside cabinet,yet from the position of the back of the nightdress compared to the front someone had pulled her legs.(Point 518)

"518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress. "

Was this another attempt by Jeremy to check that his sister was dead? Why did he not volunteer to intercede between Sheila and the family upon arrival at the farm,another indication that he knew all the occupants inside were dead..
I did not know that Steve,
The nightdress information is very interesting and thought-provoking. This does however leave the burning question; If she was sat up initially by the bedside cabinet how did the first shot get fired into the underside of her chin? Surely if she was in this position the gun wouldn't have had room to be held perpendicular to her chin? Or is there a possibility that she was leaning at an angle of around 45 degrees or more?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 12:04:AM by Moe Cassani »

Offline mike tesko

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Why did he not volunteer to intercede between Sheila and the family upon arrival at the farm,another indication that he knew all the occupants inside were dead..

Jeremy was told by PC West during his conversation with him, not to approach the farmhouse under any circumstances when he was being sent to the scene. He was to leave it to the police. Upon arrival at the scene Jeremy met the occupants of CA07 ( Bews, Myall and Saxby) - not one of these police officers asked Jeremy to intercede and or act as a mediator between the police and his family, so I think that kind of explains the point you were trying to raise...

If you have any further questions about this, perhaps you might like to contact Bews, Myall, Saxby and PC West direct and speak to them about it. If you get any response please feel free to let us all know their response...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Of course the Jeremy supporters have to say that the Police moved the body,as evidence from forensic pathologist Dr. Martyn Ismail in 2002 suggests that Sheila was shot with her head propped up against the bedside cabinet,yet from the position of the back of the nightdress compared to the front someone had pulled her legs.(Point 518)

Yes, the person who pulled her legs in this manner was a police officer during the re-staging process. The other thing which Ismail and the other experts, or anybody who was part of the prosecutoons case have failed to do, is to provide an account for how the bloodstain on the rear of Sheila's nightdress did ot produce a corresponding bloodstain on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body ended up being photographed? How was / is it possible for blood on the rear of her nightdress not to be duplicated on the bedroom (sheepskin) carpet beneath her body? Police records state that only a few spots of blood were found on the rug beneath her body and these spots of blood (blood type O) originated from June Bamber, since she was the only victim with "O" type blood. Yet I think the twins also had blood "O"?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:07:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Yes, the person who pulled her legs in this manner was a police officer during the re-staging process. The other thing which Ismail and the other experts, or anybody who was part of the prosecutoons case have failed to do, is to provide an account for how the bloodstain on the rear of Sheila's nightdress did ot produce a corresponding bloodstain on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body ended up being photographed? How was / is it possible for blood on the rear of her nightdress not to be duplicated on the bedroom (sheepskin) carpet beneath her body? Police records state that only a few spots of blood were found on the rug beneath her body and these spots of blood (blood type O) originated from June Bamber, since she was the only victim with "O" type blood. Yet I think the twins also had blood "O"?

What I find interesting about all of this, is that although it has been well documented that spots of June Bambers "O" type blood was found upon the rug beneath where Sheila's body was later photographed, there is a marked absence of any "O" type blood found anywhere on the rear of Sheila's nightdress? Now how can this be true?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:10:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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"518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress. "


Court of appeal rejected or refused to allow Ismails evidence I think...

This was because although if it had been allowed it would point to the possible involvement of a "third party in the stage managing of Sheila's body" on the bedroom floor, what was not clear by anything that Ismail could have said or did say, was  that it was any person in particular who had been responsible for doing this? It should be obvious to anybody with half a brain that what Ismail set out in his reoport could apply to the police being responsible for stage managing Sheila's body in its last resting place / posture on the bedroom floor? Of course, people can keep trying to blame Jeremy for having done this, but anyone who has seen the crime scene photographs which were kept back from the jury (October 1986), will already know in their own hearts that police have lied when they told the court of trial, and the copurt of appeal that nobody moved or touched anything at the scene until PC Bird had concluded the taking of all his phiotographs at different scenes within the farmhouse. Of course, now that some of the additional pictures which had been deliberately withheld to allow the prosecutions case to argue that Jeremy had been the one responsible for the stage managing of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, it becomes possible for everyone to see that police moved and stage managed Sheila's body there, not Jeremy, or any as yet unidentifed killer or hitman...

You see...

What was required to give Ismails findings some real umph was for all the missing crime scene photographs which show the body had been and was disturbed by the police to be submitted along with his report and conclusions at the 2002 appeal - then it would have been absolutely clear (even to the relatives) that police stage managed her body, on the bedroom floor, not Jeremy, or anybdody else...

Questions would have been asked much sooner about why it was felt necessary for the police to be stage managing the body of Sheila on the floor at that time?

This approach would have undoubtedly opened up a can of worms, which Essex police and the CPS did not want, and do not want to happen. But where does the criminal justice system stand in the fray - if it fails to act upon the use and reliance of such false evidence that helped to convict an innocent man of killing his entire family? How would the relatives have felt if police had decided to build a case against david Boutflour and made him out to be the murderer, and they found out that police had tampered with the crime scene and all manner of evidence, by bouncing it between two separate (SC/688/85 and SC/786/85) files, and merging it as it were into one file (SC/786/85)?

I suppose none of the relatives would be complaining if it was one of their own and it had happened to one of them...

You see...

Boutflour introduces the silencer which contained the crucial blood group evidence, and in 1991 he admits to the COLP investigators that he used a razor blade to scrape off a small flake of dried blood from the outside of the silencer, and befiore we know it the lab' is saying that once this silencer was submitted to the lab' a similar flake of dried blood is found trapped between two baffle plates, which turns out to bear the same four blood group types as Sheuila Caffell? Hey presto, we have a case that we can proceed with against Jeremy, and nobody is bothered about asking what Happened to the flake Boutflour scraped off the silencer (he found) and why if he told Essex police at the time (1985) why we have not heard anything at all from Essex police about what they proposed to do about this / that?

Boutflour finds the silencer in the gun cupboard which the police missed during the three days of examination at the scene, and he tamperes with it, and the court which tried the matter in October 1986 hears nothing at all about this?

Since david Boutfklour likes appearing on TV Docunmentaries, and News braodcasts and in newspaper artickles, why doesn't he simply donate some time it trying to explain in his own words what he did and when he did it regarding the scraping off of the flake that he told COLP about in 1991? Why doesn't somebody in the media take Boutflour to tsk over this and everything else remotely associated with it?

We all want to know why he scraped off the flake of blood from the silencer by use of a razor blade?[

We all want to know what he did with it, and the razor blade in question?

We all want to know which Essex police officers he told and what action they took upon being told?

We all want to know if the police insisted (August/September 1985)he hand it over to them, and if so when?

We all want to know if the flake Boutflour removed from the outside of the silencer, is the same flake of blood which later ended up becoming attributed inside it, at the lab' on or around about 12th September 1985?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:44:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Steve_uk

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Yes, the person who pulled her legs in this manner was a police officer during the re-staging process. The other thing which Ismail and the other experts, or anybody who was part of the prosecutoons case have failed to do, is to provide an account for how the bloodstain on the rear of Sheila's nightdress did ot produce a corresponding bloodstain on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body ended up being photographed? How was / is it possible for blood on the rear of her nightdress not to be duplicated on the bedroom (sheepskin) carpet beneath her body? Police records state that only a few spots of blood were found on the rug beneath her body and these spots of blood (blood type O) originated from June Bamber, since she was the only victim with "O" type blood. Yet I think the twins also had blood "O"?

One of the problems in this case was that from the outset for whatever reasons the crime was regarded as four murders and a suicide and most of the professionals who dealt with the consequences of five dead bodies at White House Farm came under the influence of this whilst reaching their conclusions. It is mysterious that the evidence against Sheila collated at the scene was lost in a burglary, unacceptable that many of the exhibits have subsequently been destroyed and so many photographs of the crime scene withheld from Jeremy's trial in 1986.

I can't understand why the Defence doesn't hire experts in blood spatter evidence to examine the photographs of Sheila's and June's nightdresses,instead of wasting time with Peter Sutherst's useless Aga scratchings. I would like to know whether it was possible for the triangular bloodstain on Sheila's nightdress in the upper right area near her armpit could have been caused from the consequences of the first bullet,whether it was the impact of the bullet itself or Sheila instinctively touching her neck and blood running down soaking that area,or whether it was indeed caused by transference from June's own nightdress. It is surely not beyond the capacity of a world class expert in this field to look at pictures of Sheila's forearm and match them with June's nightie to verify whether contact had taken place.

Edit(after reading Mike's post #101): So we have a bloodspatter expert..is it true that the Bible next to Sheila's body was placed there after all this blood on the carpet,suggesting that Jeremy himself had put it there including some "suicide notes" allegedly in Sheila's hand,though of course one was typewritten.



« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 02:19:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Roch

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It is mysterious that the evidence against Sheila collated at the scene was lost in a burglary, unacceptable that many of the exhibits have subsequently been destroyed and so many photographs of the crime scene withheld from Jeremy's trial in 1986.

Mind you don't get shot down in flames... by The Jam.