Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF

[Jane]

Somebody posted the other day that psychopaths can't cry and that is a fact, while I'm not suggesting that the post is wrong, can anybody substantiate this claim? Personally, I just don't see it but it isn't my field.

I believe that some people can shed tears at will. That doesn't necessarily mean that they feel the emotion behind the tears. Psychopaths lack empathy with others but being egocentric, react when things go wrong for them, IMO.

[ajross]

I'm paraphrasing but the post defintely said it was a fact that psychopaths can't cry which is why I asked my wife, however it's not her area of expertise (although she did work with psychopaths in Ashworth). It may have been in a discussion with Bridget and after something I may have started regarding the depiction of JBs behaviour in Wilkes' book. The arguement went that JB cried when a dog died and as psychopaths can't cry he couldn't be one. I would just like proof that none of these psychopaths have ever cried real tears. Ed Gein was incredibly messed up because of the relationship with his mother, depictions of him and many psychopaths are often of sad characters, I find it hard to believe that they actually 'cannot' cry. Even if it is just through some form of epiphany/reflexive thought surely they would be real tears, is it really that easy to generalise about all 'psychopaths'?

[Bridget]

I'm paraphrasing but the post defintely said it was a fact that psychopaths can't cry which is why I asked my wife, however it's not her area of expertise (although she did work with psychopaths in Ashworth). It may have been in a discussion with Bridget and after something I may have started regarding the depiction of JBs behaviour in Wilkes' book. The arguement went that JB cried when a dog died and as psychopaths can't cry he couldn't be one. I would just like proof that none of these psychopaths have ever cried real tears. Ed Gein was incredibly messed up because of the relationship with his mother, depictions of him and many psychopaths are often of sad characters, I find it hard to believe that they actually 'cannot' cry. Even if it is just through some form of epiphany/reflexive thought surely they would be real tears, is it really that easy to generalise about all 'psychopaths'?

I do remember the conversation but it wasn't me that said it. Maybe 'lookout'?

[maggie]

I do remember the conversation but it wasn't me that said it. Maybe 'lookout'?

If you look on line there are loads of examples of psychopaths crying. Theyr'e usually very self absorbed and can cry at anything which may affect them negatively.   imo

[ajross]

I do remember the conversation but it wasn't me that said it. Maybe 'lookout'?

Sorry Bridget, I didn't mean to suggest you, it isn't the sort of thing inwould expect you to say and if youbid, you would back it up.

[ajross]

If you look on line there are loads of examples of psychopaths crying. Theyr'e usually very self absorbed and can cry at anything which may affect them negatively.   imo

Yes, that's my general impression, I remember reading about John Wayne Gacy crying. But not just the killers, I'm sure the sociopath/psychopath businessman can cry. I assumed that there was some sort of catalyst for their behaviour which could also make them hyper- sensitive to some things. I do wonder actually if JB was sensitive to certin things and a lot of his reaction was just posturing to try and impress

[Patti]

I think I have said Psychopaths lack emotion and have no empathy, therefore I would think it very difficult for a true psychopath to cry, but I come to that assumption because of the things I have read, which in all fairness is very little...

I think there is a brain scan which shows the chemical imbalance of a psychopath and in the next 10 years scientist are developing a micro chip to put into the brain to correct the chemical imbalance....How true this is I have no idea, but I have read it...on the net.   

[Jane]

I believe that some people can shed tears at will. That doesn't necessarily mean that they feel the emotion behind the tears. Psychopaths lack empathy with others but being egocentric, react when things go wrong for them, IMO.

Patti, hi. I too have read about micro chips being implanted but I think that could be seen as moving in to dangerous territory. The majority of psychopaths aren't sex offenders or murderers. We may think it sad that they go through life without feeling its' highs and lows, but unless they become aware of this and choose to change (and here I would have to argue that such a person is not a real psychopath, but someone who for one reason or another has had to surpress their emotions) I feel that nothing can be done. Many psychopaths are highly successful simply because they are psychopaths.

It may be possible to employ this "cure" using psychopaths who are serving sentences for murders or sex crimes, as part of a release package, but not all of them will be
 psychopaths, and whilst, as we know, tabloids love to bandy the word at every oportunity, proving psychopathy isn't easy. I have visions of people being dragged kicking and screaming along corridors to have these chips unnecessarily implanted and it reminds me that we once performed frontal lobotomys as a means of controlling people.

[ajross]

I think I have said Psychopaths lack emotion and have no empathy, therefore I would think it very difficult for a true psychopath to cry, but I come to that assumption because of the things I have read, which in all fairness is very little...

I think there is a brain scan which shows the chemical imbalance of a psychopath and in the next 10 years scientist are developing a micro chip to put into the brain to correct the chemical imbalance....How true this is I have no idea, but I have read it...on the net.   

I find that absolutely shocking!

[Patti]

I find that absolutely shocking!

Hi AJ. Do you mean the chip?

I don't because if a psychopath has a chemical imbalance which makes that person kill and have no empathy....the implant of a chip could correct that imbalance in the brain. What I read was that scientists had studied scans of normal brains as opposed to pyschopaths' brains and the scans revealed a chemical imbalance.....And are working on a chip to rectify the imbalance.....It's all on the internet...

[Jane]

Patti, hi. I too have read about micro chips being implanted but I think that could be seen as moving in to dangerous territory. The majority of psychopaths aren't sex offenders or murderers. We may think it sad that they go through life without feeling its' highs and lows, but unless they become aware of this and choose to change (and here I would have to argue that such a person is not a real psychopath, but someone who for one reason or another has had to surpress their emotions) I feel that nothing can be done. Many psychopaths are highly successful simply because they are psychopaths.

It may be possible to employ this "cure" using psychopaths who are serving sentences for murders or sex crimes, as part of a release package, but not all of them will be
 psychopaths, and whilst, as we know, tabloids love to bandy the word at every oportunity, proving psychopathy isn't easy. I have visions of people being dragged kicking and screaming along corridors to have these chips unnecessarily implanted and it reminds me that we once performed frontal lobotomys as a means of controlling people.

Patti, part of the problem with psychopaths is that as far as they are concerned there is nothing wrong with them-it's the others. I which case it would be like someone telling you, or me, that there's a chemical inbalance in our brains but if we let the put a chip in it will rectify the problem. I don't know what you'd do, but I feel I might be inclined to tell them to put the chip in their own brain.

[Patti]

Patti, part of the problem with psychopaths is that as far as they are concerned there is nothing wrong with them-it's the others. I which case it would be like someone telling you, or me, that there's a chemical inbalance in our brains but if we let the put a chip in it will rectify the problem. I don't know what you'd do, but I feel I might be inclined to tell them to put the chip in their own brain.

Hi april Brilliant post as always and absolutely correct in everything you say.....We must have read the same thing...I wonder if they will really try it out...I also watched a short documentary about it. 

[Patti]

April, I watched this. Note the psychopaths interviewed have no empathy for those they have killed...they only share what they have done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ7ck8Q_RII&feature=related

[ajross]

Hi AJ. Do you mean the chip?

I don't because if a psychopath has a chemical imbalance which makes that person kill and have no empathy....the implant of a chip could correct that imbalance in the brain. What I read was that scientists had studied scans of normal brains as opposed to pyschopaths' brains and the scans revealed a chemical imbalance.....And are working on a chip to rectify the imbalance.....It's all on the internet...

I am really not sure that I can believe this as I do not believe it is possible to 'cure' a psychopath with a 'chip'. Psychopaths are also influenced by social conditioning and disfunctional families not just by a chemical imbalance in the brain, it is both nurture and natue!. I am also unsure how a brain scan can actually show up a chemical imbalance!

[Jane]

April, I watched this. Note the psychopaths interviewed have no empathy for those they have killed...they only share what they have done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ7ck8Q_RII&feature=related

Patti, hi and your words are really kind, thank you. I watched the video. Had I not known in advance what It was about, I would have said he was a reasonable young man!!!! That's chilling in itself. I read some of Hare's papers at college, he was probably one of those who convinced me that psychopathy is a mixture of socialization and genetics, actually he could have been speaking of my mother, who was truly incapable of considering anybody elses feelings in any way, other than how they impacted on her. I'm certain she was on the psychopathic spectrum.

I was told something today which I found, at best thought provoking, at worst, chilling. I hope you don't mind if I run it by you. I was paid a visit by the person who manages the complex where I live. Still in my jarmies and on line, I explained what it was that was holding my interest-and discovered just how small the world is. She had previously worked for a mental health trust whose senior psychiatrists were required to assess prisoners deemed to have committed serious crimes. Two of their number visited Jeremy and both assessed him as a psychopath. I pointed out that he had been tested on 27(?) different occasions and the results for psychopathy were negative. She said that none of those tests were random and had all been done at Jeremy's request and he knew when they were going to happen which would have enabled him to have control of how he
 presented himself. She did however, agree that there is room for doubt, she was fully aware of the cock up made by EP, and she agreed that being a psychopath doesn't necessarily make him a killer........

......Which is the one thing I would take the video to task over. I know it was sensationalism to hold the viewers attention, but I think she rather overstressed the potential danger of psychopaths, when we know the vast majority are out there, living their lives, albeit with a different mindset, like the rest of us.

At the moment, I probably put microchips in the same catagory as chemical castration, genetic engineering and embryonic research.