Occupants of CA07, relayed information to control room, from raid team...

[NewChilledOutHartley]

Hi Hartley

Do you agree that Jeapes statement should have been known to the defence? and, do you agree that she should have been examined and cross examined in court? Two for the price of one there

For if she states clearly she saw a gun at the window, then why on entering the building was there not a gun found in the window....This is a argument that could have been held in court....?

Hi Patti,

As alluded to above, in the first instance, I do not know that her statement was withheld, however it certainly wasn't used by the prosecution as part of their case, so they ultimately didn't call Jeapes as a witness.
Could the defence have called Jeapes as a witness if they did have access to her statement, well yes, but unless she stated something which was not contained in her statement, then I'm not sure what help to the defence she would have been, it would be a strange situation, but the prosecution could then cross examine her and reduce any damage to their case that she may have caused.

If she clearly saw a gun in the window (which is very contentious), then in addition to it being in that same location when the firearms entered the house, you would expect to see reference to her informing her superiors of her sighting in the logs, due to the massive implications it would have on a raid team entering the premises. It may also need some explaining why, if it was a rifle, why she didn't see it move.

Jeapes statement is here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1387.0.html

The window that she saw 'what appeared' to be a rifle leaning against, is without doubt the master bedroom, the same window that is shown in the photograph below.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that she did indeed see a rifle, the exact same rifle in the photograph below, however it was not before the raid team entered, it was afterwards and after the rifle had been removed by a police officer.
I'm beginning to think this goes a long way to undermine Mikes suggestion that that Sheila and the rifle were downstairs.

(There's a better image somewhere)

[Patti]

Hi Patti,

As alluded to above, in the first instance, I do not know that her statement was withheld, however it certainly wasn't used by the prosecution as part of their case, so they ultimately didn't call Jeapes as a witness.
Could the defence have called Jeapes as a witness if they did have access to her statement, well yes, but unless she stated something which was not contained in her statement, then I'm not sure what help to the defence she would have been, it would be a strange situation, but the prosecution could then cross examine her and reduce any damage to their case that she may have caused.

If she clearly saw a gun in the window (which is very contentious), then in addition to it being in that same location when the firearms entered the house, you would expect to see reference to her informing her superiors of her sighting in the logs, due to the massive implications it would have on a raid team entering the premises. It may also need some explaining why, if it was a rifle, why she didn't see it move.

Jeapes statement is here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1387.0.html

The window that she saw 'what appeared' to be a rifle leaning against, is without doubt the master bedroom, the same window that is shown in the photograph below.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that she did indeed see a rifle, the exact same rifle in the photograph below, however it was not before the raid team entered, it was afterwards and after the rifle had been removed by a police officer.
I'm beginning to think this goes a long way to undermine Mikes suggestion that that Sheila and the rifle were downstairs.

(There's a better image somewhere)

Hi Hartley, OK the PCS did not use her statement then; then we are unsure it was looked at by the defence? Yes!

She was a trained officer....it may be possible that she did alert another colleague at the time, but we have no evidence of that, because that log could either be withheld or not looked upon as being that important at the time.

If the such evidence had been presented in court; I am sure likewise the defence team would have had a field with it.....as would the CPS.

I disagree Hartley, that she saw that gun in the main bedroom, she had the barn behind her....She could see the kitchen light on downstairs...and she describes the grey clad brick to the right of the kitchen....this to me looks like the Box Room according to Mike's picture in the archives, but that room was in darkness, or was it? So yes, one can't understand that she had seen a gun placed at the window if it was dark. However, in one of the other rad team statement, he also claims to have seen a gun in a room upstairs apart from the one that was on Sheila......I will fish that out for you.

There is some confusion to where she alledges to have seen this rifle.   I don't think it was after the murders Hartley...she was with three others...who then entered the house.

[NewChilledOutHartley]

Hi Hartley, OK the PCS did not use her statement then; then we are unsure it was looked at by the defence? Yes!

She was a trained officer....it may be possible that she did alert another colleague at the time, but we have no evidence of that, because that log could either be withheld or not looked upon as being that important at the time.

If the such evidence had been presented in court; I am sure likewise the defence team would have had a field with it.....as would the CPS.

I disagree Hartley, that she saw that gun in the main bedroom, she had the barn behind her....She could see the kitchen light on downstairs...and she describes the grey clad brick to the right of the kitchen....this to me looks like the Box Room according to Mike's picture in the archives, but that room was in darkness, or was it? So yes, one can't understand that she had seen a gun placed at the window if it was dark. However, in one of the other rad team statement, he also claims to have seen a gun in a room upstairs apart from the one that was on Sheila......I will fish that out for you.

There is some confusion to where she alledges to have seen this rifle.   I don't think it was after the murders Hartley...she was with three others...who then entered the house.

I disagree, having read the statement again, and knowing the layout of the grounds extremely well, I believe she is referring the the master bedroom window, after the raid team had entered the house, discovered the bodies, removed the rifle from Sheila and lent it against the window.

I understand that you disagree, but I'm now quite convinced that the above is what happened.

[sagar]

I think you might be getting your forums mixed up?

That statement is the exact reason it took me ages to actually join and post on here.

No, i havent got forums mixed. Please aim your paranoia elsewhere thankyou.

[Patti]

I disagree, having read the statement again, and knowing the layout of the grounds extremely well, I believe she is referring the the master bedroom window, after the raid team had entered the house, discovered the bodies, removed the rifle from Sheila and lent it against the window.

I understand that you disagree, but I'm now quite convinced that the above is what happened.

Hi Hartley, sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew the place well...you must be local. The raid team had left well before that rifle was moved Hartley...I suppose it is one of things that we will never know unless we ask that person direct..... Thank you..

I'm forgetting it might have been light when she saw the gun...

[susan]

Patti  how do I kill the aliens

[Patti]

Let me go through it....

6:45 Jeaps arrives at the farm.

She takes her place at the corner of the barn, facing the a view to the right hand side of the premises. White/red side.

She then takes over from Smart, Collins and Delgardo and was a ware that 12 yards behind her to the right was Moule which is at the left hand side of the barn.  She had changed her position...

She then states she saw the front door was shut....meaning the back door. to the right of that door there was a light on, which she believed to be the kitchen.  From that position I on the first floor on the clad grey brick side of the building was what I believe to have been a gun. 

After various radio messages she was told 5 dead.....she returns to her car, she chats to Jeremy on the way, and arrives at HQ at 9:30....

 

To me that is the box room......and it would have been light, so yes it is possible that she might have seen a gun... I'm really trying here....but NO RESPONSE.....lol

[Bridget]

Let me go through it....

6:45 Jeaps arrives at the farm.

She takes her place at the corner of the barn, facing the a view to the right hand side of the premises. White/red side.

She then takes over from Smart, Collins and Delgardo and was a ware that 12 yards behind her to the right was Moule which is at the left hand side of the barn.  She had changed her position...

She then states she saw the front door was shut....meaning the back door. to the right of that door there was a light on, which she believed to be the kitchen.  From that position I on the first floor on the clad grey brick side of the building was what I believe to have been a gun. 

After various radio messages she was told 5 dead.....she returns to her car, she chats to Jeremy on the way, and arrives at HQ at 9:30....

 

To me that is the box room......and it would have been light, so yes it is possible that she might have seen a gun... I'm really trying here....but NO RESPONSE.....lol

Whichever room it was you have to wonder why the sighting of a rifle at a window during what could have been an armed seige didn't create one hell of a palava.

[Patti]

Whichever room it was you have to wonder why the sighting of a rifle at a window during what could have been an armed seige didn't create one hell of a palava.

Hi Bridget, they were already in a palarva. She was a fire arms instructor, she would know a gun if she saw one....She may have alerted the others....one of the raid team officers also saw a gun in a room upstairs, this could have been the same gun and that is what I am trying to determine....but I keep being told it;s the main bedroom window that this gun was sighted in....when is it clear that she took the position form Collins, Smart and Delgardo, because they went towards the door to break it down....She couldn't have seen the front main bedroom....she was at the back...She was back at HQ for 9:30.....Am i crackers or what? lololol

[NewChilledOutHartley]

Just to advance discussions, this OS Plan may help:

Also the definitive RED/WHITE/BLACK/GREEN directions are as described by Adams I would suggest.

[lookout]

It would have indicated it wasn't in use,Bridget.

[Roch]

That statement is the exact reason it took me ages to actually join and post on here.

No, i havent got forums mixed. Please aim your paranoia elsewhere thankyou.

Maybe it's your preconceived ideas about what this forum is that need to be dropped?  You're stuck in a time warp.  It's May 2012, not May 2011.

[Bridget]

It would have indicated it wasn't in use,Bridget.

What wasn't?

[NewChilledOutHartley]

Adams "Colour Codes":

[Bridget]

Just to advance discussions, this OS Plan may help:

Also the definitive RED/WHITE/BLACK/GREEN directions are as described by Adams I would suggest.

Could you draw an X where you think Jeapes is? I can't see a barn from where she could have seen both white and red sides.