Motivations For Murders

[susan]

Bridget  Just wondering what your take is on the polygraph test.

[grahameb]

Bridget  I was just wondering if you can throw any light onto what happened when Jeremy entered WHF to murder is family It has been established that Sheila,s  bed had not been slept in and she had food in her stomach so she must have eaten after the others who were all in bed.  She would not just hang around whilst Jeremy shot everybody then calmly lie down so he could shoot her. The PM stated she was not  drugged up or sedated.  I was just wondering if I have missed something here.  Did she open the door for Jeremy or if he went in through a window she would think that strange and the dog crispy would have barked.

That's quite a relevent observation actually.

[maggie]

You'd like to think so wouldn't you, but there are plenty of murderers in prison who've also passed those tests (although probably not as many times as 27!)

Theres also a huge difference between killing in the heat of the moment and cold bloodidly planni.g and killi.g the 5 people you know best in the world. That surely has to be the work of a psychopath.

[mertol22]

If he is guilty then he certainly would be a monster to appear so normal after all these years. If you have seen a modern picture of Ian Brady his features really have changed and he even looks like a dark kind of character abandoned by any semblance of humanity.

In order to believe jeremy is guilty there is the ability for him to enter the house do the murders , re adjust himself and re appear very calm and fully co operate with the police soon , and attend the 1st funeral services for Ralph, June and Sheila, followed a little later of the burials of Daniel and Nicolas , remember in colins book there is a photo copy of the floral tribute to the boys hand written ending from uncle jeremy, are we to believe he was capable of such mind control?

[maggie]

That's quite a relevent observation actually.

THi Susie hat is hugely relevant. These statements are really hard to explain away.

[Patti]

Jeremy appeared to display much higher degrees of empathy than Sheila.

Prof Simon Baron-Cohen believes that there's no such thing as evil just a complete lack of empathy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE

Brilliant egap. It gives you a better insight to 3 major illnesses under the umbrella of zero empathy. 

[tyler]

Bridget  I was just wondering if you can throw any light onto what happened when Jeremy entered WHF to murder is family It has been established that Sheila,s  bed had not been slept in and she had food in her stomach so she must have eaten after the others who were all in bed.  She would not just hang around whilst Jeremy shot everybody then calmly lie down so he could shoot her. The PM stated she was not  drugged up or sedated.  I was just wondering if I have missed something here.  Did she open the door for Jeremy or if he went in through a window she would think that strange and the dog crispy would have barked.

Has it been established that Sheilas bed had not been slept in?I think that it has been "assumed".
So,she may have been in bed with one of the twins in order to comfort him,like many of us as parents do.It is very possible then,that Sheila could have sustained her first shot whilst sleeping,just like with the boys?Was then dragged into the main bedroom after the murders were over,where a second shot was needed because the first one did not kill her?

[grahameb]

Has it been established that Sheilas bed had not been slept in?I think that it has been "assumed".
So,she may have been in bed with one of the twins in order to comfort him,like many of us as parents do.It is very possible then,that Sheila could have sustained her first shot whilst sleeping,just like with the boys?Was then dragged into the main bedroom after the murders were over,where a second shot was needed because the first one did not kill her?

So why bother to drag her into another room?

[susan]

tyler most things about this case are based on assumptions as initially it was not treated as a murder scene and therefore evidence was not collected immediately after the murders.

[Patti]

This is slightly away from the title of the thread but I'm truly fascinated to try and understand why some members are pro and others anti given that we all have access to the same info.  I guess its just the way we process info, meshed with our own life experiences and the weight we apply to particular aspects, or is it something else?

For example Hartley, Bob, Rochford and NGB1066 (Haven't incl Mike as he has met Jeremy).  All four seem of above average intelligence, are articulate and seem decent people.  They all have access to the same info and yet totally disagree?

I think someone started an off-topic thread a few weeks back about a similar theme ie suggesting that those on the right of the political spectrum might be more inclined towards JB being guilty and the reverse for the left wingers.  But as was pointed out that doesn't account for Andrew Hunter. 

Even the jury: 10:2?

Cld it be that those that believe JB is guilty are comfortable seeing the worse in others in a way that those who don't aren't?

Any ideas?

egap, I love your train of thought, it's amazing. If you take 10 people and they all read the same sentence, i would at a guess, say half of them would interpretate the sentence differently.  :D

[tyler]

So why bother to drag her into another room?

Grahame......I dont know!
But the scenario I set out is not impossible.
Why would Sheila choose to commit suicide only yards from the adopted mother that she clearly thought was the reason for her own mental problems?
Why not alongside her beloved sons?

[maggie]

Brilliant egap. It gives you a better insight to 3 major illnesses under the umbrella of zero empathy. 

I agree Patti that is a brilliant example. It hits the nail right on the head.It is the ability to emote which is so crucial.  To be able to stare your father in the face and shoot him and batter him in cold blood, never mind the rest of the story.

[Patti]

I agree Patti that is a brilliant example. It hits the nail right on the head.It is the ability to emote which is so crucial.  To be able to stare your father in the face and shoot him and batter him in cold blood, never mind the rest of the story.

One has to be a psychopath to have committed those murders Maggie.  Someone who was pushed to the limit and snapped.  Son or daughter....to have looked into the face of their parents and shot them to death....then shot two 6 year old boys.....not once, but several times.

I've just been watching some more clips about psychopathy and, scientists have come up with some amazing stuff regarding brain images and the brain functions.  In 10 years time, a psychopath could treated with a micro chip inserted into the brain, so that the brain functions like a normal person.....WOW!  

[maggie]

I don't believe there's such a thing as evil rather a complete lack of empathy. 

If you go along with prof Simon Baron-Cohen's zero empathy theory, which I do, it connects with Dr John Bowlby's attachment theory (following link explains) and takes me back to June's mental illness in 1959, resulting in Sheila's attachment disorder, resulting in a lack of empathy, resulting in the WHF murders/suicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE

Really fascinating lecture egap. I was wondering if June had herself suffered from attachment difficulties as a young child which may have caused her own apparent lack of warmth with her children  eg.not enough cuddling and kisses   

[Jane]

Yes but did you get the bit about Dr John Bowlby's attachment theory and how this can give rise to a lack of empathy?

egap1, there is also the point that those children who have never received love, can grow into adults who don't know how to give it (unless they get help). It really makes perfect sense when you think about it, doesn't it?