Author Topic: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom  (Read 69937 times)

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Offline JackiePreece

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #420 on: April 13, 2012, 12:35:PM »
Jon you are right I understand now.  Keep it up Hartley!!
"No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle" Winston Churchill

Hartley

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #421 on: April 13, 2012, 12:36:PM »
Jon you are right I understand now.  Keep it up Hartley!!

It was never down.  ???

Online ngb1066

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #422 on: April 13, 2012, 12:49:PM »
Yes it is definitely the same Aga.







However ......... it appears it was converted from coke to oil, so disregard my previous oil based comments.

Thanks, I thought it was solid fuel.  By opening the door it would therefore have been possible to place the end of the rifle barrel into the fire, heating it very quickly, or it could have been placed inside the oven which would achieve the same result but take a bit longer.  I appreciate that there is no direct evidence that this occurred but if the burns were caused by the end of the rifle barrel (which the Arizona tests suggest is likely) this is a plausible explanation for the way in which the barrel was heated. 

 

elphick

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #423 on: April 13, 2012, 12:52:PM »
Thanks, I thought it was solid fuel.  By opening the door it would therefore have been possible to place the end of the rifle barrel into the fire, heating it very quickly, or it could have been placed inside the oven which would achieve the same result but take a bit longer.  I appreciate that there is no direct evidence that this occurred but if the burns were caused by the end of the rifle barrel (which the Arizona tests suggest is likely) this is a plausible explanation for the way in which the barrel was heated. 

 

Yes, the coal scuttle was a bit of a clue. However, was the aga likely to have been lit in mid summer? Was it used for cooking the evening meal? or was it used for heating water? It has pipes coming out of it so I assume that it would have been kept alight to heat water for the house.
 

Offline JackiePreece

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #424 on: April 13, 2012, 12:53:PM »
Poor Neville maybe Sheila blamed him the most for bringing up the question of fostering the twins
"No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle" Winston Churchill

Hartley

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #425 on: April 13, 2012, 12:56:PM »
Thanks, I thought it was solid fuel.  By opening the door it would therefore have been possible to place the end of the rifle barrel into the fire, heating it very quickly, or it could have been placed inside the oven which would achieve the same result but take a bit longer.  I appreciate that there is no direct evidence that this occurred but if the burns were caused by the end of the rifle barrel (which the Arizona tests suggest is likely) this is a plausible explanation for the way in which the barrel was heated. 

 

Yes it could potentially be an explanation.

Edit: Although I would argue that the Arizona tests indicate that it is possible, rather than likely.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:59:PM by Hartley »

Online ngb1066

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #426 on: April 13, 2012, 01:01:PM »
Yes, the coal scuttle was a bit of a clue. However, was the aga likely to have been lit in mid summer? Was it used for cooking the evening meal? or was it used for heating water? It has pipes coming out of it so I assume that it would have been kept alight to heat water for the house.

Yes, it was permanently lit.


elphick

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #427 on: April 13, 2012, 01:03:PM »
Thanks. Then it is the most likely source of heat for heating up whatever it was that made the burn marks on Ralph.

Online ngb1066

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #428 on: April 13, 2012, 01:07:PM »
Yes it could potentially be an explanation.

Edit: Although I would argue that the Arizona tests indicate that it is possible, rather than likely.

Bear in mind what was shown on the recent documentary was not the Arizona tests themselves but reconstructions in the UK.  In his report based upon his tests in Arizona Dr Caruso does suggest that it is likely the burns were caused by the heated end of the barrel.  However, further work is necessary which may strengthen that conclusion from likely to probable.




Hartley

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #429 on: April 13, 2012, 01:12:PM »
Bear in mind what was shown on the recent documentary was not the Arizona tests themselves but reconstructions in the UK.  In his report based upon his tests in Arizona Dr Caruso does suggest that it is likely the burns were caused by the heated end of the barrel.  However, further work is necessary which may strengthen that conclusion from likely to probable.

I think the key phrase is "further work is necessary", which would include demonstrating the the mark could not have been caused by a metal poker heated in the same manner.

Online ngb1066

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #430 on: April 13, 2012, 01:15:PM »
I think the key phrase is "further work is necessary", which would include demonstrating the the mark could not have been caused by a metal poker heated in the same manner.

Yes, it would include eliminating other possibilities.


Offline Patti

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #431 on: April 13, 2012, 01:49:PM »
Shelia:

Shelia was adopted and, had been diagnosed as being a paranoid schizophrenic. She had been
sectioned a few times. Her children had also been taken into foster care. She shared custody of her
two children with ex husband Colin Caffell. Two days prior to the murders Shelia was released from hospital
and, was spending a week, with the twins at White Farm.

Day before the killing Shelia takes cannabis, she had also been injected with the drug Haloperidol.
Shelia was confused, she had told her psychiatrist, that her children were possessed by the devil
and she imagined her children having sex. She was obsessed by god and could hear voices
in her head. 

Shelia's boy friend Freddie had made a statement that Shelia could be violent and on
one occasion thrown things round the kitchen, thumped her self and the wall. Shelia told him
god was sat opposite her and that her children had been possessed with the devil....

 Shelia did not want her children taken into care, nor did she want to return into care herself.
Shelia felt dominated by her mother. Social services had been involved, her children had received
burns on legs and tummy; also one of the children Daniel had an head injury and, was taken to
hospital, it was said he had fallen from a taxi, but social services did nothing...other than make a statement
that was never produced in court.


Scenario:
Shelia could not sleep, she becomes paranoid...and is now going crazy....Shelia goes downstairs
for a drink, she sees the gun.....She picks it up and goes back upstairs, she enters her parents bedroom.
She start to argue with her parents.....Nevill goes downstairs, he calls the police and his son...Nevill runs
back upstairs, by this time, Shelia is arguing fiercely with her mother...Her mother throws her bible at Shelia,
it hits the wall and lands on the floor....Shelia shoots her mother, she turns the gun on her father and shoots him
3 times. Her mother manages to get out of bed, she shoots her again and again..Shelia goes into her children's
bedroom and shoots them. She then goes back into her parents bedroom and Nevill is not there....She races down
stairs to find a subdued Nevill trying to get to the phone....she pushes him on the back with the nozzle of the gun...
She knows he is trying to get to the phone....she shoots another 4 times....Nevill falls over the chair and his poor
head goes into the coal scuttle...She prods him again on the back to make sure he is dead....She then goes back
upstairs to her mother, she knows the police are outside, they had seen her in the kitchen....she sits on the edge
 of the bed, she shoots herself in the neck, but it only wounds her...
She then falls to  the floor and manages to sit up and shoots the fatal shot that kills her.....she falls awkwardly hitting
her head on the side of the bed, the gun lands on top of her...

Buddy

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #432 on: April 13, 2012, 02:29:PM »
Well I don't believe that it did.

Although, as I've already said, I don't have a plausible explanation for the cause of the marks to Nevills back.

Even if it was a hot poker, as is suggested in the Dickinson Report, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain how the poker got hot. The Dickinson Report suggests it was put in the fire of the Aga, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the Aga is oil fired, there is access to the pilot light and combustion chamber behind the hatch/door on the lower left of the Aga front, but this is then behind another internal glass door.

There were also no fires/stoves lit on the night in question, in which a poker could be heated.

So like the prosecution, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how they occurred, but I am very confident that they didn't get caused by a rifle being heated up simply by leaning against the face of the Aga.

Maybe a lighter was the heat source (ie. like a zippo, or even a plastic disposable one).  :-\
I seem to recall that one of the officers said tha the aga WAS alight. I will dig into the statements.

Offline Roch

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #433 on: April 13, 2012, 02:37:PM »
I have always believed a full reconstruction at WHF , would show that it was virtually impossible for JB to carry out these murder's , the reconstruction would include all noise involved , the cycle ride home done by a actor of similar build , the staging of the bodies , ideas of how JB could get SC to lay down , all done in front of counsel , who could ask any question's they found relevant !!

Interesting suggestion Jon.  I can picture JB peddling madly, like 'Elliott' on E.T.

Newbury1

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Re: People Are Playing Games With Jeremys Life and Freedom
« Reply #434 on: April 13, 2012, 03:07:PM »
Thanks, I thought it was solid fuel.  By opening the door it would therefore have been possible to place the end of the rifle barrel into the fire, heating it very quickly, or it could have been placed inside the oven which would achieve the same result but take a bit longer.  I appreciate that there is no direct evidence that this occurred but if the burns were caused by the end of the rifle barrel (which the Arizona tests suggest is likely) this is a plausible explanation for the way in which the barrel was heated. 


Hi NGB, I seem to recall a previous exchange over Aga's  ;)

The type of solid fuel Aga at whf I believe was on permanently, and the cooking rings (with those lift up covers) are also permanently hot.

If this is the case, the poker (if it was a poker) could have been left on a cooking ring held in place with the ring cover until it heated up enough to burn skin.

The point being, if it was a poker, there are alternatives to heating it up other than opening an oven.

My personal opinion is that the burn marks on Nevills back (as seen on the Tonight programme), even if made on the night (which is still not clear), will remain a mystery.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 03:57:PM by Nick »