Author Topic: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...  (Read 17126 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2011, 10:53:PM »
Now all I would like an answer to, is what explanation do Essex police have to explain how three bodies upstairs by 8:10am, managed to turn into four bodies?

How do they explain this discrepancy, and is the fact that two bodies had been found downstairs earlier, linked to the find of three bodies upstairs - alternatively, if the two body scenario found downstairs was explaned by introducing the mistaken identity excuse, what excuse could the police now introduce (25 years later) to account for the transformation of three bodies upstairs, into four, by 8:30am?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2011, 11:04:PM »

This is not about whether or not Robert Boutflour could be sued, or whether or not his wife Pamela could be sued, its about the threat to his children, and their children, and family loosing their home, because they could not afford to repay the loan to Ralph Bambers estate, and Robert Boutflour, and all the other relatives knew, that Ralph had bailed them out of a very difficult situation, and if Jeremy inherited, the relatives, either individually or collectively, would have to find someway of raising the capital to repay the loan to Ralph's estate...

The issue is...

Whether this feature could have influenced what Robert Boutflour was doing, and what he did, in trying to convince the police that Sheila, had not done, what she had done, and that it was Jeremy, all along...

Boutflour would have known that if Jeremy was convicted of the murders that Jeremy could not be a beneficiary of his parents estates - its as simple as that really, nothing too complicated, that ordinary folk can't get their heads around...

I was trying to establish if you were talking about a motive for perverting the course of justice or not, and it seems that you are.

Robert Boutflour did go out of his way to convince the police Jeremy did it - I'm not disputing that.

The first question is did he fabricate evidence against Jeremy? I've seen nothing to suggest he did.

The second question is - did he know for a fact that Jeremy didn't do it? I've seen nothing to suggest that he did.

He may well have hoped Jeremy did it for the reasons you've outlined, and he obviously wanted the police to think that, but that's very different to actually conspiring to pervert the course of justice.
---------------------------------------------

But he did conspire to pervert the course of justice, and he was involved in the elaborate conspiracy surrounding how the silencer was introduced and falsely used to help secure convictions for these murders against Jeremy...

The Bamber silencer, was not found in the gun cupboard at whf on Saturday, 10th August 1985, that is and was a deliberate lie - the Bamber silencer was not found in the gun cupboard until 11th September 1985, a month later - yet Robert Boutflour states that ghis son, David Boutflour found that silencer inside the gun cupboard and that it had paint upon it from the aga, and blood on it, and that he was involved in making arrangements for it to be handed to the police by Peter Eaton on 12th August 1985, when to be frank, it was all a pack of lies...

What Robert Boutflour and his son, David, forgot to mention was that they had handed their own identical Parker hale silencers to the police, as part of the police investigation, which is very interesting, since, the blood expert, later concluded that blood found inside the silencer he examined (DB/1) could have originated from Sheila Caffell and Robert Boutflour...

Now if you want to get into a debate about what I know about the silencer issue, you would be talking to someone who knows just about everything there is to know, about all the different silencers (SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/10 which the police had in their possession as part of their investigations, because I was the one who helped to uncover how these different silencers have been portrayed as being one and the same...

Forgive me, but I do not need to be convinced by anybody that the relatives did not conspire together over the silencer issue to help get Jeremy convicted for these murders - there is now too much evidence top favor them trying to frame Jeremy for anyone to easily ignore...

I've seen stuff about there being more than one silencer, but it's too confusing. I've seen one tiny piece of typing that says a silencer was found on 11th September, and I can't remember where I saw that now.

Robert says in his diary that the silencer was found on the 11th August, so 11/9/85 could have meant 11/8/85 and it could have been a typing error.

I've also seen a statement by DC Oakley that he went to Ann's house on 11th September and was given some items relating to a gun, but there was no mention of a silencer. Oakley also said that on 14th September David Boutflour handed him some items relating to a gun, but again there was no mention of a silencer. On the same day Oakley went to the farm with David and removed some items from the gun cupboard - there was no mention of a silencer.

You say that Robert and David handed their own silencer to the police - when did they do that? 

Are you suggesting that they handed in their own silencer and that was the one which had male and female DNA in it? Are you further suggesting that the silencer from the cupboard at the farm had no DNA or blood in it?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2011, 11:32:PM »
Found that bit!

http://jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber5.htm

It does look like it's saying that David Boutflour found a silencer with blood on it on 11 September. What is that document, and why does it say "Relevant point being it was not"?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2011, 10:20:AM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2011, 10:39:AM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?
------------------------------------------

Standard Essex police policy - if anything went wrong during an armed operation, a second group of firearms officers must attend the scene and carry out an independent re-enactment to identify the mistakes which the original group of officers made, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and also to  improve the competence of its firearms officers, in general...

Recently, Essex police sent Jeremy some documents inside which was and is reference to this second group of officers who entered the farmhouse to carry out these duties. This document did not name any of the officers who were there at that time, and who did carry out those duties, but their identities have been established by reference to other material already in Jeremy's possession, which lists all of the police officers, including the names of forearms officers who went into whf, outlining that fingerprints were required for elimination purposes...

17 additional officers names are on that list, 17 police officers who officially did not ever enter whf (including DC Henderson and PC Robert Carr). It became a simply easy task to identify the names of the firearms officer amongst that list of 17 names, who were part of that group that carried out the re-enactment between 9 and 9:22am...

Some of these officers, arrived at the scene in a police vehicle bearing the call sign, QK/50...

Now, according to the official version of events, none of the occupants of QK/50, or any of these other officers mentioned on the elimination fingerprint list, ever set foot inside whf, and none of the other police officers who were official at the scene, do not make any mention of these other firearms officers being there inside the farmhouse, yet, they must have been because their fingerprints were required for elimination purposes, and as I say Jeremy received notice from Essex police that a re-enactment had taken place inside whf between 9 and 9:22am by a second group of independent firearms officers...

So, if that is not clear enough, I do not know what else to say...

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2011, 11:05:AM »
Perhaps my problem is with the word "re-enactment". To me that suggests putting all the bodies back where they were when they first seen and going through what should have been done. That would mean putting Sheila's body back downstairs in the kitchen and then teaching the first firearm's team what they should have done at that stage.


Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 11:12:AM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?
------------------------------------------

Standard Essex police policy - if anything went wrong during an armed operation, a second group of firearms officers must attend the scene and carry out an independent re-enactment to identify the mistakes which the original group of officers made, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and also to  improve the competence of its firearms officers, in general...

Recently, Essex police sent Jeremy some documents inside which was and is reference to this second group of officers who entered the farmhouse to carry out these duties. This document did not name any of the officers who were there at that time, and who did carry out those duties, but their identities have been established by reference to other material already in Jeremy's possession, which lists all of the police officers, including the names of forearms officers who went into whf, outlining that fingerprints were required for elimination purposes...

17 additional officers names are on that list, 17 police officers who officially did not ever enter whf (including DC Henderson and PC Robert Carr). It became a simply easy task to identify the names of the firearms officer amongst that list of 17 names, who were part of that group that carried out the re-enactment between 9 and 9:22am...

Some of these officers, arrived at the scene in a police vehicle bearing the call sign, QK/50...

Now, according to the official version of events, none of the occupants of QK/50, or any of these other officers mentioned on the elimination fingerprint list, ever set foot inside whf, and none of the other police officers who were official at the scene, do not make any mention of these other firearms officers being there inside the farmhouse, yet, they must have been because their fingerprints were required for elimination purposes, and as I say Jeremy received notice from Essex police that a re-enactment had taken place inside whf between 9 and 9:22am by a second group of independent firearms officers...

So, if that is not clear enough, I do not know what else to say...

According to Malcolm Bonnet's log, QK50 was sent to the scene at 4.35 and QK26 was sent at 4.36. Both vehicles arrived at the farm at 4.58 according to his log. Are you saying that the officers who went into the house at 9 am were from QK50 and that they had been sitting outside since 4.58?

Vehicle QZ5 or Q25 (not sure what that says) was also sent to the scene at 4.37 and also arrived at 4.58. Who was in that one?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:14:AM by Kaldin »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2011, 11:29:AM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?
------------------------------------------

Standard Essex police policy - if anything went wrong during an armed operation, a second group of firearms officers must attend the scene and carry out an independent re-enactment to identify the mistakes which the original group of officers made, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and also to  improve the competence of its firearms officers, in general...

Recently, Essex police sent Jeremy some documents inside which was and is reference to this second group of officers who entered the farmhouse to carry out these duties. This document did not name any of the officers who were there at that time, and who did carry out those duties, but their identities have been established by reference to other material already in Jeremy's possession, which lists all of the police officers, including the names of forearms officers who went into whf, outlining that fingerprints were required for elimination purposes...

17 additional officers names are on that list, 17 police officers who officially did not ever enter whf (including DC Henderson and PC Robert Carr). It became a simply easy task to identify the names of the firearms officer amongst that list of 17 names, who were part of that group that carried out the re-enactment between 9 and 9:22am...

Some of these officers, arrived at the scene in a police vehicle bearing the call sign, QK/50...

Now, according to the official version of events, none of the occupants of QK/50, or any of these other officers mentioned on the elimination fingerprint list, ever set foot inside whf, and none of the other police officers who were official at the scene, do not make any mention of these other firearms officers being there inside the farmhouse, yet, they must have been because their fingerprints were required for elimination purposes, and as I say Jeremy received notice from Essex police that a re-enactment had taken place inside whf between 9 and 9:22am by a second group of independent firearms officers...

So, if that is not clear enough, I do not know what else to say...

According to Malcolm Bonnet's log, QK50 was sent to the scene at 4.35 and QK26 was sent at 4.36. Both vehicles arrived at the farm at 4.58 according to his log. Are you saying that the officers who went into the house at 9 am were from QK50 and that they had been sitting outside since 4.58?

Vehicle QZ5 or Q25 (not sure what that says) was also sent to the scene at 4.37 and also arrived at 4.58. Who was in that one?
-----------------------------------------------

Second team of firearms officers, who were already at the scene, were sent into whf to carry out a re-enactment at 9am, which lasted 22 minutes, and concluded at 9:22am. These police officers are understood to have included the occupants of QK/50, and others...

There is no official time when any of these police officers left the scene...

And no-one at the scene, speaks about what they did in an official capacity. They never went into whf at all, whilst they were there officially, yet their fingerprints were taken for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house. I have a record of who occupied all the other police vehicles which you talk about, and their names appear on the list of police officers whose fingerprints were required for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house?

The only conclusion which can be drawn, is that these other armed police officers, who arrived at the scene, in call signs QK/50 and the others, must have been inside whf at some stage that morning, yet their is no official confirmation that they did, or what they were doing when they went inside...

But they did go inside, on two separate occasions, the first between 9:00 and 9:22am, and secondly, between 10:35 and 11:35am, that same morning, to carry out training exercises, whilst the bodies of the victims were still in situ...

 

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2011, 11:39:AM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?
------------------------------------------

Standard Essex police policy - if anything went wrong during an armed operation, a second group of firearms officers must attend the scene and carry out an independent re-enactment to identify the mistakes which the original group of officers made, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and also to  improve the competence of its firearms officers, in general...

Recently, Essex police sent Jeremy some documents inside which was and is reference to this second group of officers who entered the farmhouse to carry out these duties. This document did not name any of the officers who were there at that time, and who did carry out those duties, but their identities have been established by reference to other material already in Jeremy's possession, which lists all of the police officers, including the names of forearms officers who went into whf, outlining that fingerprints were required for elimination purposes...

17 additional officers names are on that list, 17 police officers who officially did not ever enter whf (including DC Henderson and PC Robert Carr). It became a simply easy task to identify the names of the firearms officer amongst that list of 17 names, who were part of that group that carried out the re-enactment between 9 and 9:22am...

Some of these officers, arrived at the scene in a police vehicle bearing the call sign, QK/50...

Now, according to the official version of events, none of the occupants of QK/50, or any of these other officers mentioned on the elimination fingerprint list, ever set foot inside whf, and none of the other police officers who were official at the scene, do not make any mention of these other firearms officers being there inside the farmhouse, yet, they must have been because their fingerprints were required for elimination purposes, and as I say Jeremy received notice from Essex police that a re-enactment had taken place inside whf between 9 and 9:22am by a second group of independent firearms officers...

So, if that is not clear enough, I do not know what else to say...

According to Malcolm Bonnet's log, QK50 was sent to the scene at 4.35 and QK26 was sent at 4.36. Both vehicles arrived at the farm at 4.58 according to his log. Are you saying that the officers who went into the house at 9 am were from QK50 and that they had been sitting outside since 4.58?

Vehicle QZ5 or Q25 (not sure what that says) was also sent to the scene at 4.37 and also arrived at 4.58. Who was in that one?
-----------------------------------------------

Second team of firearms officers, who were already at the scene, were sent into whf to carry out a re-enactment at 9am, which lasted 22 minutes, and concluded at 9:22am. These police officers are understood to have included the occupants of QK/50, and others...

There is no official time when any of these police officers left the scene...

And no-one at the scene, speaks about what they did in an official capacity. They never went into whf at all, whilst they were there officially, yet their fingerprints were taken for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house. I have a record of who occupied all the other police vehicles which you talk about, and their names appear on the list of police officers whose fingerprints were required for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house?

The only conclusion which can be drawn, is that these other armed police officers, who arrived at the scene, in call signs QK/50 and the others, must have been inside whf at some stage that morning, yet their is no official confirmation that they did, or what they were doing when they went inside...

But they did go inside, on two separate occasions, the first between 9:00 and 9:22am, and secondly, between 10:35 and 11:35am, that same morning, to carry out training exercises, whilst the bodies of the victims were still in situ...

So you're basing all this on the list of officers whose fingerprints were taken for elimination purposes. I get that. You're surmising a lot from a list of officers who were at the scene at some point.

What makes you think they were in QK50?

What makes you think they went into the house at 9.00 and again at 10.35?

what makes you think that they were in there to do a "re-enactment"?


Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2011, 12:01:PM »


Not only did police mistakes cost Sheila her life in the bedroom, but those very same mistakes put the lives of the raid team, and later, the lives of senior police officers at risk of being confronted and shot at, and possibly killed by Sheila who eventually ended up back in possession of a loaded gun whilst police were still inside the farmhouse...

By 9am, a second team of firearms officers arrived inside the house and carried out a reconstruction (re-enactment) of the original operation, and identified what went wrong, and how it went wrong - this exercise lasted 22 minutes, at the conclusion of which senior police officers at the scene, acting in conjunction with the permission and authority of ACC Peter Simpson (Head of Operation), agreed to stage manage the scene, and move bodies, and place a gun upon Sheila, and to arrange for members of the original raid team to report the discovery of the bodies, as shown at the time when PC Bird took his crimes scene photographs from 10 O'clock, onwards that same morning...



Right, so let's just say that you're right about the two bodies in the kitchen, and the lack of a fourth body upstairs at 8.10. Let's just say that Sheila did shoot herself in the kitchen with a second gun, and that she went upstairs after that and shot herself again with the Anschutz rifle which she had left in the main bedroom. Let's just say that officers in the house heard the shot and ran into the bedroom and found her lying there.

I have a real problem with the next bit of your scenario. I don't think the priority of the senior police there would be to get some more guys in to do a spot of training. I don't think they could have got these guys there by 9 am. I don't think they would need to do a reconstruction and stage manage the scene and move her body to show she killed herself in the bedroom. Why would they need to do that - according to your scenario she did kill herself in the bedroom.

What happened in the official logs after 8.10 when the search was complete? Did the armed police leave the house? Did other officers go in?
------------------------------------------

Standard Essex police policy - if anything went wrong during an armed operation, a second group of firearms officers must attend the scene and carry out an independent re-enactment to identify the mistakes which the original group of officers made, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and also to  improve the competence of its firearms officers, in general...

Recently, Essex police sent Jeremy some documents inside which was and is reference to this second group of officers who entered the farmhouse to carry out these duties. This document did not name any of the officers who were there at that time, and who did carry out those duties, but their identities have been established by reference to other material already in Jeremy's possession, which lists all of the police officers, including the names of forearms officers who went into whf, outlining that fingerprints were required for elimination purposes...

17 additional officers names are on that list, 17 police officers who officially did not ever enter whf (including DC Henderson and PC Robert Carr). It became a simply easy task to identify the names of the firearms officer amongst that list of 17 names, who were part of that group that carried out the re-enactment between 9 and 9:22am...

Some of these officers, arrived at the scene in a police vehicle bearing the call sign, QK/50...

Now, according to the official version of events, none of the occupants of QK/50, or any of these other officers mentioned on the elimination fingerprint list, ever set foot inside whf, and none of the other police officers who were official at the scene, do not make any mention of these other firearms officers being there inside the farmhouse, yet, they must have been because their fingerprints were required for elimination purposes, and as I say Jeremy received notice from Essex police that a re-enactment had taken place inside whf between 9 and 9:22am by a second group of independent firearms officers...

So, if that is not clear enough, I do not know what else to say...

According to Malcolm Bonnet's log, QK50 was sent to the scene at 4.35 and QK26 was sent at 4.36. Both vehicles arrived at the farm at 4.58 according to his log. Are you saying that the officers who went into the house at 9 am were from QK50 and that they had been sitting outside since 4.58?

Vehicle QZ5 or Q25 (not sure what that says) was also sent to the scene at 4.37 and also arrived at 4.58. Who was in that one?
-----------------------------------------------

Second team of firearms officers, who were already at the scene, were sent into whf to carry out a re-enactment at 9am, which lasted 22 minutes, and concluded at 9:22am. These police officers are understood to have included the occupants of QK/50, and others...

There is no official time when any of these police officers left the scene...

And no-one at the scene, speaks about what they did in an official capacity. They never went into whf at all, whilst they were there officially, yet their fingerprints were taken for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house. I have a record of who occupied all the other police vehicles which you talk about, and their names appear on the list of police officers whose fingerprints were required for elimination purposes against fingerprints found inside the house?

The only conclusion which can be drawn, is that these other armed police officers, who arrived at the scene, in call signs QK/50 and the others, must have been inside whf at some stage that morning, yet their is no official confirmation that they did, or what they were doing when they went inside...

But they did go inside, on two separate occasions, the first between 9:00 and 9:22am, and secondly, between 10:35 and 11:35am, that same morning, to carry out training exercises, whilst the bodies of the victims were still in situ...

So you're basing all this on the list of officers whose fingerprints were taken for elimination purposes. I get that. You're surmising a lot from a list of officers who were at the scene at some point.

What makes you think they were in QK50?

What makes you think they went into the house at 9.00 and again at 10.35?

what makes you think that they were in there to do a "re-enactment"?
----------------------------------------------------

So, what is the alternative, another group of unidentified armed officers who arrived at the scene, unannounced, and whose fingerprints were never required for elimination purposes?

Police have sent Jeremy a document which confirms that a group of police officers went into the house and carried out some sort of an operation there, which lasted between 9:00 and 9:22am...

In addition, another group of officers also entered the farmhouse at 10:35am, and did not  come back out until 11:35am, and the identity of all these additional police officers who went into whf, at and between 9:00 to 9:22am, and 10:35 to 11:35am,  was not officially reported on, or mentioned by any of the other police officers who were officially there at the scene. Furthermore, it was force policy for a second group of armed police officers to attend the scene to carry out a re-enactment of an armed police operation where something had gone wrong, so that the second group could identify what those mistakes had been, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and the competency's of armed officers who would be dealing with future firearms operations...

This is precisely what the group which went into the house at 9:00am to 9:22am did, and what the third group of armed officers did, between 10:25am and 11:35am...

As I understand it, what these police officers actually did once they went into the farmhouse, at 9:00 and 10:35am, respectively, is covered in material which is currently being withheld under pii rules, which could not be obtained beforehand, but now that Jeremy knows what took place, he can go back to court and make an application for the said withheld material to be disclosed, because it would help to explain who moved and stage managed the scene, and why the scene was stage managed?

Jeremy has been wrongly accused of stage managing the scene, actions which the police at the scene are responsible for doing. Now the original firearms team deny that they moved or touched anything when they forced their way into the farmhouse at around 7:27am. Similarly SOC deny moving anything at the scene, until after PC Bird took his pictures, and therefore, it must have been these other forearms officers who stage managed the scene in the kitchen, and the main bedroom...

Jeremy is entitled to any information or evidence, or material which would tend to show that it could not have been him that stage managed the scene, and in particular, the body of his sister in the bedroom. He has been blamed for doing something which police at the scene were, and are, and is responsible for doing...

Any recommendations which were arrived at, as a result of the re-enactment taking place inside the farmhouse, is also vitally important, because it is understood to include details about the mistakes which the original team made, including the failure to properly check to see if Sheila was still alive downstairs at the scene, and the failure to check to see if the gun in the bedroom was still loaded with bullets, or not?

There must also be information on file, about the culpability of the police, for Sheila having died in the bedroom...

This information should be released to Jeremy if it would tend o show that Jeremy could not, and did not kill his sister in the bedroom, and that he did not stage managed her body there with a view to promoting the idea of suicide...



"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2011, 12:33:PM »


So, what is the alternative, another group of unidentified armed officers who arrived at the scene, unannounced, and whose fingerprints were never required for elimination purposes?

Police have sent Jeremy a document which confirms that a group of police officers went into the house and carried out some sort of an operation there, which lasted between 9:00 and 9:22am...

In addition, another group of officers also entered the farmhouse at 10:35am, and did not  come back out until 11:35am, and the identity of all these additional police officers who went into whf, at and between 9:00 to 9:22am, and 10:35 to 11:35am,  was not officially reported on, or mentioned by any of the other police officers who were officially there at the scene. Furthermore, it was force policy for a second group of armed police officers to attend the scene to carry out a re-enactment of an armed police operation where something had gone wrong, so that the second group could identify what those mistakes had been, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and the competency's of armed officers who would be dealing with future firearms operations...

This is precisely what the group which went into the house at 9:00am to 9:22am did, and what the third group of armed officers did, between 10:25am and 11:35am...

As I understand it, what these police officers actually did once they went into the farmhouse, at 9:00 and 10:35am, respectively, is covered in material which is currently being withheld under pii rules, which could not be obtained beforehand, but now that Jeremy knows what took place, he can go back to court and make an application for the said withheld material to be disclosed, because it would help to explain who moved and stage managed the scene, and why the scene was stage managed?

Jeremy has been wrongly accused of stage managing the scene, actions which the police at the scene are responsible for doing. Now the original firearms team deny that they moved or touched anything when they forced their way into the farmhouse at around 7:27am. Similarly SOC deny moving anything at the scene, until after PC Bird took his pictures, and therefore, it must have been these other forearms officers who stage managed the scene in the kitchen, and the main bedroom...

Jeremy is entitled to any information or evidence, or material which would tend to show that it could not have been him that stage managed the scene, and in particular, the body of his sister in the bedroom. He has been blamed for doing something which police at the scene were, and are, and is responsible for doing...

Any recommendations which were arrived at, as a result of the re-enactment taking place inside the farmhouse, is also vitally important, because it is understood to include details about the mistakes which the original team made, including the failure to properly check to see if Sheila was still alive downstairs at the scene, and the failure to check to see if the gun in the bedroom was still loaded with bullets, or not?

There must also be information on file, about the culpability of the police, for Sheila having died in the bedroom...

This information should be released to Jeremy if it would tend o show that Jeremy could not, and did not kill his sister in the bedroom, and that he did not stage managed her body there with a view to promoting the idea of suicide...

Right, so you're not just basing all this on the list of officers who were finger printed. I misunderstood that.

You say that Jeremy has a document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 9 until 9.22, and that he has another document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 10.35 until 11.35?

I understand that you can't post that document for some reason, so I have no way of knowing what else it says. Can you at least say if those documents say anything other than that groups of officers went in and left at those times? For example, do they say they were firearm police? Do they indicate at all what those officers did?

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2011, 03:26:PM »


So, what is the alternative, another group of unidentified armed officers who arrived at the scene, unannounced, and whose fingerprints were never required for elimination purposes?

Police have sent Jeremy a document which confirms that a group of police officers went into the house and carried out some sort of an operation there, which lasted between 9:00 and 9:22am...

In addition, another group of officers also entered the farmhouse at 10:35am, and did not  come back out until 11:35am, and the identity of all these additional police officers who went into whf, at and between 9:00 to 9:22am, and 10:35 to 11:35am,  was not officially reported on, or mentioned by any of the other police officers who were officially there at the scene. Furthermore, it was force policy for a second group of armed police officers to attend the scene to carry out a re-enactment of an armed police operation where something had gone wrong, so that the second group could identify what those mistakes had been, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and the competency's of armed officers who would be dealing with future firearms operations...

This is precisely what the group which went into the house at 9:00am to 9:22am did, and what the third group of armed officers did, between 10:25am and 11:35am...

As I understand it, what these police officers actually did once they went into the farmhouse, at 9:00 and 10:35am, respectively, is covered in material which is currently being withheld under pii rules, which could not be obtained beforehand, but now that Jeremy knows what took place, he can go back to court and make an application for the said withheld material to be disclosed, because it would help to explain who moved and stage managed the scene, and why the scene was stage managed?

Jeremy has been wrongly accused of stage managing the scene, actions which the police at the scene are responsible for doing. Now the original firearms team deny that they moved or touched anything when they forced their way into the farmhouse at around 7:27am. Similarly SOC deny moving anything at the scene, until after PC Bird took his pictures, and therefore, it must have been these other forearms officers who stage managed the scene in the kitchen, and the main bedroom...

Jeremy is entitled to any information or evidence, or material which would tend to show that it could not have been him that stage managed the scene, and in particular, the body of his sister in the bedroom. He has been blamed for doing something which police at the scene were, and are, and is responsible for doing...

Any recommendations which were arrived at, as a result of the re-enactment taking place inside the farmhouse, is also vitally important, because it is understood to include details about the mistakes which the original team made, including the failure to properly check to see if Sheila was still alive downstairs at the scene, and the failure to check to see if the gun in the bedroom was still loaded with bullets, or not?

There must also be information on file, about the culpability of the police, for Sheila having died in the bedroom...

This information should be released to Jeremy if it would tend o show that Jeremy could not, and did not kill his sister in the bedroom, and that he did not stage managed her body there with a view to promoting the idea of suicide...

Right, so you're not just basing all this on the list of officers who were finger printed. I misunderstood that.

You say that Jeremy has a document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 9 until 9.22, and that he has another document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 10.35 until 11.35?

I understand that you can't post that document for some reason, so I have no way of knowing what else it says. Can you at least say if those documents say anything other than that groups of officers went in and left at those times? For example, do they say they were firearm police? Do they indicate at all what those officers did?
----------------------------------

Yes, it says that these forearms officers carried out certain duties, under a particular heading...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2011, 04:00:PM »


So, what is the alternative, another group of unidentified armed officers who arrived at the scene, unannounced, and whose fingerprints were never required for elimination purposes?

Police have sent Jeremy a document which confirms that a group of police officers went into the house and carried out some sort of an operation there, which lasted between 9:00 and 9:22am...

In addition, another group of officers also entered the farmhouse at 10:35am, and did not  come back out until 11:35am, and the identity of all these additional police officers who went into whf, at and between 9:00 to 9:22am, and 10:35 to 11:35am,  was not officially reported on, or mentioned by any of the other police officers who were officially there at the scene. Furthermore, it was force policy for a second group of armed police officers to attend the scene to carry out a re-enactment of an armed police operation where something had gone wrong, so that the second group could identify what those mistakes had been, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and the competency's of armed officers who would be dealing with future firearms operations...

This is precisely what the group which went into the house at 9:00am to 9:22am did, and what the third group of armed officers did, between 10:25am and 11:35am...

As I understand it, what these police officers actually did once they went into the farmhouse, at 9:00 and 10:35am, respectively, is covered in material which is currently being withheld under pii rules, which could not be obtained beforehand, but now that Jeremy knows what took place, he can go back to court and make an application for the said withheld material to be disclosed, because it would help to explain who moved and stage managed the scene, and why the scene was stage managed?

Jeremy has been wrongly accused of stage managing the scene, actions which the police at the scene are responsible for doing. Now the original firearms team deny that they moved or touched anything when they forced their way into the farmhouse at around 7:27am. Similarly SOC deny moving anything at the scene, until after PC Bird took his pictures, and therefore, it must have been these other forearms officers who stage managed the scene in the kitchen, and the main bedroom...

Jeremy is entitled to any information or evidence, or material which would tend to show that it could not have been him that stage managed the scene, and in particular, the body of his sister in the bedroom. He has been blamed for doing something which police at the scene were, and are, and is responsible for doing...

Any recommendations which were arrived at, as a result of the re-enactment taking place inside the farmhouse, is also vitally important, because it is understood to include details about the mistakes which the original team made, including the failure to properly check to see if Sheila was still alive downstairs at the scene, and the failure to check to see if the gun in the bedroom was still loaded with bullets, or not?

There must also be information on file, about the culpability of the police, for Sheila having died in the bedroom...

This information should be released to Jeremy if it would tend o show that Jeremy could not, and did not kill his sister in the bedroom, and that he did not stage managed her body there with a view to promoting the idea of suicide...

Right, so you're not just basing all this on the list of officers who were finger printed. I misunderstood that.

You say that Jeremy has a document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 9 until 9.22, and that he has another document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 10.35 until 11.35?

I understand that you can't post that document for some reason, so I have no way of knowing what else it says. Can you at least say if those documents say anything other than that groups of officers went in and left at those times? For example, do they say they were firearm police? Do they indicate at all what those officers did?
----------------------------------

Yes, it says that these forearms officers carried out certain duties, under a particular heading...

Well that sounds most interesting. I guess it will come out at some stage.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2011, 04:11:PM »


So, what is the alternative, another group of unidentified armed officers who arrived at the scene, unannounced, and whose fingerprints were never required for elimination purposes?

Police have sent Jeremy a document which confirms that a group of police officers went into the house and carried out some sort of an operation there, which lasted between 9:00 and 9:22am...

In addition, another group of officers also entered the farmhouse at 10:35am, and did not  come back out until 11:35am, and the identity of all these additional police officers who went into whf, at and between 9:00 to 9:22am, and 10:35 to 11:35am,  was not officially reported on, or mentioned by any of the other police officers who were officially there at the scene. Furthermore, it was force policy for a second group of armed police officers to attend the scene to carry out a re-enactment of an armed police operation where something had gone wrong, so that the second group could identify what those mistakes had been, with a view to improving future firearms operations, and the competency's of armed officers who would be dealing with future firearms operations...

This is precisely what the group which went into the house at 9:00am to 9:22am did, and what the third group of armed officers did, between 10:25am and 11:35am...

As I understand it, what these police officers actually did once they went into the farmhouse, at 9:00 and 10:35am, respectively, is covered in material which is currently being withheld under pii rules, which could not be obtained beforehand, but now that Jeremy knows what took place, he can go back to court and make an application for the said withheld material to be disclosed, because it would help to explain who moved and stage managed the scene, and why the scene was stage managed?

Jeremy has been wrongly accused of stage managing the scene, actions which the police at the scene are responsible for doing. Now the original firearms team deny that they moved or touched anything when they forced their way into the farmhouse at around 7:27am. Similarly SOC deny moving anything at the scene, until after PC Bird took his pictures, and therefore, it must have been these other forearms officers who stage managed the scene in the kitchen, and the main bedroom...

Jeremy is entitled to any information or evidence, or material which would tend to show that it could not have been him that stage managed the scene, and in particular, the body of his sister in the bedroom. He has been blamed for doing something which police at the scene were, and are, and is responsible for doing...

Any recommendations which were arrived at, as a result of the re-enactment taking place inside the farmhouse, is also vitally important, because it is understood to include details about the mistakes which the original team made, including the failure to properly check to see if Sheila was still alive downstairs at the scene, and the failure to check to see if the gun in the bedroom was still loaded with bullets, or not?

There must also be information on file, about the culpability of the police, for Sheila having died in the bedroom...

This information should be released to Jeremy if it would tend o show that Jeremy could not, and did not kill his sister in the bedroom, and that he did not stage managed her body there with a view to promoting the idea of suicide...

Right, so you're not just basing all this on the list of officers who were finger printed. I misunderstood that.

You say that Jeremy has a document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 9 until 9.22, and that he has another document which says that a group of officers went into the house at 10.35 until 11.35?

I understand that you can't post that document for some reason, so I have no way of knowing what else it says. Can you at least say if those documents say anything other than that groups of officers went in and left at those times? For example, do they say they were firearm police? Do they indicate at all what those officers did?
----------------------------------

Yes, it says that these forearms officers carried out certain duties, under a particular heading...

Well that sounds most interesting. I guess it will come out at some stage.
---------------------------------------------

armed police who went into whf at these times carried out duties in terms of "Police informatives" - which means for training purposes...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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Re: Police did not set out to frame Jeremy for the murders...
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2011, 05:24:PM »
How many officers were there in the teams that entered at 09.00 and 10.25? If they didn't need to be fingerprinted for elimination purposes, is that because they all wore gloves?