Author Topic: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...  (Read 33026 times)

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Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2011, 07:15:PM »
This implies that Anne Eaton handed the silencer to Oakey on 11 September but I don't think that's a police document.

http://jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber5.htm

For a start, Oakey's name is spelt wrong, and secondly the police wouldn't query who had collected it.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2011, 07:16:PM »
Mike, on 11th September 1985 Ann Eaton handed over the telescopic sights to Oakey. Is that when you think she handed over the silencer too?

If she found the telescopic sights the same time as she found the silencer, it wasn't on 11th September according to Robert Boutflour's diary. He said that the telescopic sight was at her house on 3rd September.
--------------------------------------------
Typed version of Robert Boutflours Diary was not typed out until much later, long after last entry on 5th September 1985, which gave him time to introduce features and references that he thought might be important, out of sequence, so to speak......

You mean he saw the telescopic sight at Ann's house on 11 September?
-----------------------------
Possibly, yes - incorporated into the typed version as if by mentioning it in the typed version of his Diary entries, that it somehow helped to prove and establish that the telescopic site and the silencer was found in the gun cupboard that much sooner, a month sooner actually...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2011, 07:22:PM »

OK, blood found inside a silencer (DB/1) sent to the Lab' on 30th August 1985, belonged to the relatives, and by the time the blood came to be analyzed, Robert Boutflour had already managed to persuade ACC Peter Simpson, to start a fresh investigation, with a view to  prosecuting Jeremy for the killings - in order to pursue such an objective, they had to find a way to make out a case for the blood having been found inside the Bamber silencer, which had not been seized or found by that stage...

Later, when the Bamber silencer was found in the gun cupboard, it was seen as an ideal opportunity to suggest that the blood had actually been found inside that silencer (DRB/1) and that the killer had used it on the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom, and therefore the killer must have removed the Bamber silencer from the gun and taken it downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

Police and relatives, simply moved the timing of when the Bamber silencer was found, from 11th September 1985, to 10th August 1985, and all the documentation at the lab', was altered to accommodate this approach...

This was how the Bamber silencer (DRB/1)  which was found on 11th September 1985, was treated as having been the same silencer which was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985 (SBJ/1), and later when a silencer was resubmitted to the Lab' on 30th August 1985 (DB/1)...

They made out a false case for the Bamber silencer having been found sooner than it was, and for it to have been submitted to the Lab' sooner than it actually was...

Well where did the silencer DB/1 tested on 30th August come from? If the police had found it at the scene they would have said so at the time surely because at that point Robert Boutflour hadn't been to see Peter Simpson and they had no reason not to say so. If the Boutflours handed it in for some reason, the police would want to know where they got it.

If the blood found in the silencer DB/1 was June's, then how did it get there? If it wasn't hers then whose was it?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2011, 07:31:PM »
Why wouldn't they simply have said that the silencer DB/1 found in August had been found in the gun cupboard? That seems simpler than getting so many people to lie.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2011, 07:33:PM »

OK, blood found inside a silencer (DB/1) sent to the Lab' on 30th August 1985, belonged to the relatives, and by the time the blood came to be analyzed, Robert Boutflour had already managed to persuade ACC Peter Simpson, to start a fresh investigation, with a view to  prosecuting Jeremy for the killings - in order to pursue such an objective, they had to find a way to make out a case for the blood having been found inside the Bamber silencer, which had not been seized or found by that stage...

Later, when the Bamber silencer was found in the gun cupboard, it was seen as an ideal opportunity to suggest that the blood had actually been found inside that silencer (DRB/1) and that the killer had used it on the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom, and therefore the killer must have removed the Bamber silencer from the gun and taken it downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

Police and relatives, simply moved the timing of when the Bamber silencer was found, from 11th September 1985, to 10th August 1985, and all the documentation at the lab', was altered to accommodate this approach...

This was how the Bamber silencer (DRB/1)  which was found on 11th September 1985, was treated as having been the same silencer which was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985 (SBJ/1), and later when a silencer was resubmitted to the Lab' on 30th August 1985 (DB/1)...

They made out a false case for the Bamber silencer having been found sooner than it was, and for it to have been submitted to the Lab' sooner than it actually was...

Well where did the silencer DB/1 tested on 30th August come from? If the police had found it at the scene they would have said so at the time surely because at that point Robert Boutflour hadn't been to see Peter Simpson and they had no reason not to say so. If the Boutflours handed it in for some reason, the police would want to know where they got it.

If the blood found in the silencer DB/1 was June's, then how did it get there? If it wasn't hers then whose was it?
-----------------------------------------------

Silencer DB/1 could not have been found at the scene, its as simple as that, because it was well known that there should have only been two different silencers at the farmhouse, one Parker hale silencer which belonged to Anthony Pargeter (SBJ/1), and the other which was the Bamber silencer (DRB/1), the former silencer normally kept ion the downstairs toilet at the farm, and the latter kept in the gun cupboard...

Silencer DB/1 must have been handed into the police by the Boutflours, at some stage before 30th August 1985...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2011, 07:37:PM »

OK, blood found inside a silencer (DB/1) sent to the Lab' on 30th August 1985, belonged to the relatives, and by the time the blood came to be analyzed, Robert Boutflour had already managed to persuade ACC Peter Simpson, to start a fresh investigation, with a view to  prosecuting Jeremy for the killings - in order to pursue such an objective, they had to find a way to make out a case for the blood having been found inside the Bamber silencer, which had not been seized or found by that stage...

Later, when the Bamber silencer was found in the gun cupboard, it was seen as an ideal opportunity to suggest that the blood had actually been found inside that silencer (DRB/1) and that the killer had used it on the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom, and therefore the killer must have removed the Bamber silencer from the gun and taken it downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

Police and relatives, simply moved the timing of when the Bamber silencer was found, from 11th September 1985, to 10th August 1985, and all the documentation at the lab', was altered to accommodate this approach...

This was how the Bamber silencer (DRB/1)  which was found on 11th September 1985, was treated as having been the same silencer which was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985 (SBJ/1), and later when a silencer was resubmitted to the Lab' on 30th August 1985 (DB/1)...

They made out a false case for the Bamber silencer having been found sooner than it was, and for it to have been submitted to the Lab' sooner than it actually was...

Well where did the silencer DB/1 tested on 30th August come from? If the police had found it at the scene they would have said so at the time surely because at that point Robert Boutflour hadn't been to see Peter Simpson and they had no reason not to say so. If the Boutflours handed it in for some reason, the police would want to know where they got it.

If the blood found in the silencer DB/1 was June's, then how did it get there? If it wasn't hers then whose was it?
-----------------------------------------------

Silencer DB/1 could not have been found at the scene, its as simple as that, because it was well known that there should have only been two different silencers at the farmhouse, one Parker hale silencer which belonged to Anthony Pargeter (SBJ/1), and the other which was the Bamber silencer (DRB/1), the former silencer normally kept ion the downstairs toilet at the farm, and the latter kept in the gun cupboard...

Silencer DB/1 must have been handed into the police by the Boutflours, at some stage before 30th August 1985...

Well if it was handed in by the Boutflours and it was found to have blood in it on 30th August, don't you think the police would have asked them how it came to have blood in it?

Whose blood was it? I thought it was established that June's DNA had been found in the silencer. How would her DNA get inside a silencer owned by the Boutflours?

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2011, 07:38:PM »
Why wouldn't they simply have said that the silencer DB/1 found in August had been found in the gun cupboard? That seems simpler than getting so many people to lie.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because the Boutflour silencer (DB/1) was not normally kept at whf, it did not belong to the Bambers, or to Anthony Pargeter. It was at this stage that one or two police officers who were not in on the plan to try and frame Jeremy for the murders, suspected the Boutflours of trying to frame Jeremy...

Blood had to be attributed to the Bamber silencer, the only other silencer( DRB/1) present at the farmhouse, other than the Pargeter silencer, which DS Jones took possession of from the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985 (SBJ/1)
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2011, 07:42:PM »
Why wouldn't they simply have said that the silencer DB/1 found in August had been found in the gun cupboard? That seems simpler than getting so many people to lie.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because the Boutflour silencer (DB/1) was not normally kept at whf, it did not belong to the Bambers, or to Anthony Pargeter. It was at this stage that one or two police officers who were not in on the plan to try and frame Jeremy for the murders, suspected the Boutflours of trying to frame Jeremy...

Blood had to be attributed to the Bamber silencer, the only other silencer( DRB/1) present at the farmhouse, other than the Pargeter silencer, which DS Jones took possession of from the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985 (SBJ/1)

Why on earth would the Boutflours hand in their own silencer that had nothing to do with the crime, especially if it had blood in it?

The fact is there was blood and DNA in the silencer, whichever one it was, so whose blood and DNA was it?

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2011, 07:50:PM »

OK, blood found inside a silencer (DB/1) sent to the Lab' on 30th August 1985, belonged to the relatives, and by the time the blood came to be analyzed, Robert Boutflour had already managed to persuade ACC Peter Simpson, to start a fresh investigation, with a view to  prosecuting Jeremy for the killings - in order to pursue such an objective, they had to find a way to make out a case for the blood having been found inside the Bamber silencer, which had not been seized or found by that stage...

Later, when the Bamber silencer was found in the gun cupboard, it was seen as an ideal opportunity to suggest that the blood had actually been found inside that silencer (DRB/1) and that the killer had used it on the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom, and therefore the killer must have removed the Bamber silencer from the gun and taken it downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

Police and relatives, simply moved the timing of when the Bamber silencer was found, from 11th September 1985, to 10th August 1985, and all the documentation at the lab', was altered to accommodate this approach...

This was how the Bamber silencer (DRB/1)  which was found on 11th September 1985, was treated as having been the same silencer which was sent to the Lab' on 13th August 1985 (SBJ/1), and later when a silencer was resubmitted to the Lab' on 30th August 1985 (DB/1)...

They made out a false case for the Bamber silencer having been found sooner than it was, and for it to have been submitted to the Lab' sooner than it actually was...

Well where did the silencer DB/1 tested on 30th August come from? If the police had found it at the scene they would have said so at the time surely because at that point Robert Boutflour hadn't been to see Peter Simpson and they had no reason not to say so. If the Boutflours handed it in for some reason, the police would want to know where they got it.

If the blood found in the silencer DB/1 was June's, then how did it get there? If it wasn't hers then whose was it?
-----------------------------------------------

Silencer DB/1 could not have been found at the scene, its as simple as that, because it was well known that there should have only been two different silencers at the farmhouse, one Parker hale silencer which belonged to Anthony Pargeter (SBJ/1), and the other which was the Bamber silencer (DRB/1), the former silencer normally kept ion the downstairs toilet at the farm, and the latter kept in the gun cupboard...

Silencer DB/1 must have been handed into the police by the Boutflours, at some stage before 30th August 1985...

Well if it was handed in by the Boutflours and it was found to have blood in it on 30th August, don't you think the police would have asked them how it came to have blood in it?

Whose blood was it? I thought it was established that June's DNA had been found in the silencer. How would her DNA get inside a silencer owned by the Boutflours?
-----------------------------------------------

David Boutflour claims that when he found the silencer (DRB/1) in the gun cupboard, that it had a blob of blood stuck to the outside of it, on the silencers end cap, which he scraped off by use of a razor blade, and which he retained because it fascinated him...

There is no photographic evidence to prove that the flake of blood was ever found inside the silencer (DB/1), we only have the say so, of the ballistics expert, who claims it was found to be trapped between baffle plates one and two...

What is very interesting, is that Boutflour actually found the Bamber silencer in the gun cupboard on 11th September 1985, and that the blood was analyzed at the lab' from 12th September 1985, onwards...

There is a possibility that the flake which Boutflour scraped off the end of the Bamber silencers end cap, by use of a razor blade was handed over to the police, which in turn was submitted to the Lab' in time for it to commence being analyzed from 12th September 1985, onward. If true, blood was not found inside the silencer, which ever silencer was being referred to, it was only allegedly found on the outside of the Bamber silencer, it could have got there by a process of innocent or accidental contamination...

Interestingly enough, Boutflour made no mention of scraping off this flake of blood from the end of the silencer he found in the gun cupboard, until he was spoken to by COLP in 1991...

He did not tell COLP what happened to that flake of blood, other than to say that Essex police were fully aware of what he had done...

This is all very well, but he should have told the court during Jeremy's trial what he had done with this piece of dried blood that he scraped from the Bamber silencers end cap - he effectively compromised the silencer (DRB/1) and any evidence which might have been found upon it...



« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:52:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2011, 07:53:PM »
Why wouldn't they simply have said that the silencer DB/1 found in August had been found in the gun cupboard? That seems simpler than getting so many people to lie.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because the Boutflour silencer (DB/1) was not normally kept at whf, it did not belong to the Bambers, or to Anthony Pargeter. It was at this stage that one or two police officers who were not in on the plan to try and frame Jeremy for the murders, suspected the Boutflours of trying to frame Jeremy...

Blood had to be attributed to the Bamber silencer, the only other silencer( DRB/1) present at the farmhouse, other than the Pargeter silencer, which DS Jones took possession of from the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985 (SBJ/1)

Why on earth would the Boutflours hand in their own silencer that had nothing to do with the crime, especially if it had blood in it?

The fact is there was blood and DNA in the silencer, whichever one it was, so whose blood and DNA was it?
---------------------------------------------------

It remains possible that the silencer (DB/1) they handed in did not have any blood inside it, or upon it...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2011, 08:00:PM »


David Boutflour claims that when he found the silencer (DRB/1) in the gun cupboard, that it had a blob of blood stuck to the outside of it, on the silencers end cap, which he scraped off by use of a razor blade, and which he retained because it fascinated him...

There is no photographic evidence to prove that the flake of blood was ever found inside the silencer (DB/1), we only have the say so, of the ballistics expert, who claims it was found to be trapped between baffle plates one and two...

What is very interesting, is that Boutflour actually found the Bamber silencer in the gun cupboard on 11th September 1985, and that the blood was analyzed at the lab' from 12th September 1985, onwards...

There is a possibility that the flake which Boutflour scraped off the end of the Bamber silencers end cap, by use of a razor blade was handed over to the police, which in turn was submitted to the Lab' in time for it to commence being analyzed from 12th September 1985, onward. If true, blood was not found inside the silencer, which ever silencer was being referred to, it was only allegedly found on the outside of the Bamber silencer, it could have got there by a process of innocent or accidental contamination...

Interestingly enough, Boutflour made no mention of scraping off this flake of blood from the end of the silencer he found in the gun cupboard, until he was spoken to by COLP in 1991...

He did not tell COLP what happened to that flake of blood, other than to say that Essex police were fully aware of what he had done...

This is all very well, but he should have told the court during Jeremy's trial what he had done with this piece of dried blood that he scraped from the Bamber silencers end cap - he effectively compromised the silencer (DRB/1) and any evidence which might have been found upon it...

So now you're saying that blood might not have been found at any time in any silencer, but it might have been found on the outside of a silencer, possibly the Bamber silencer.

I'm on the point of giving up with this one. I just can't see why the Boutflours would hand in their own silencer. I can't see evidence that Ann Eaton handed in the silencer on 12 September. All these dates when silencers were found/handed in/tested by the lab and silencer numbers are doing my head in. I think someone else will have to explain it.  ;D




Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2011, 08:06:PM »
I think there was a silencer with blood in it. I think that silencer was used to kill four members of the family. I think that silencer was found on 11th August. I think that none of that means that Jeremy shot the family.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2011, 08:10:PM »
If the Boutflours handed in their own silencer for some bizarre reason, the police had no reason to send it for testing because it wasn't at the farm. Therefore, I don't think the silencer which was tested on 30th August was the Boutflour's silencer.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2011, 08:12:PM »


David Boutflour claims that when he found the silencer (DRB/1) in the gun cupboard, that it had a blob of blood stuck to the outside of it, on the silencers end cap, which he scraped off by use of a razor blade, and which he retained because it fascinated him...

There is no photographic evidence to prove that the flake of blood was ever found inside the silencer (DB/1), we only have the say so, of the ballistics expert, who claims it was found to be trapped between baffle plates one and two...

What is very interesting, is that Boutflour actually found the Bamber silencer in the gun cupboard on 11th September 1985, and that the blood was analyzed at the lab' from 12th September 1985, onwards...

There is a possibility that the flake which Boutflour scraped off the end of the Bamber silencers end cap, by use of a razor blade was handed over to the police, which in turn was submitted to the Lab' in time for it to commence being analyzed from 12th September 1985, onward. If true, blood was not found inside the silencer, which ever silencer was being referred to, it was only allegedly found on the outside of the Bamber silencer, it could have got there by a process of innocent or accidental contamination...

Interestingly enough, Boutflour made no mention of scraping off this flake of blood from the end of the silencer he found in the gun cupboard, until he was spoken to by COLP in 1991...

He did not tell COLP what happened to that flake of blood, other than to say that Essex police were fully aware of what he had done...

This is all very well, but he should have told the court during Jeremy's trial what he had done with this piece of dried blood that he scraped from the Bamber silencers end cap - he effectively compromised the silencer (DRB/1) and any evidence which might have been found upon it...

So now you're saying that blood might not have been found at any time in any silencer, but it might have been found on the outside of a silencer, possibly the Bamber silencer.

I'm on the point of giving up with this one. I just can't see why the Boutflours would hand in their own silencer. I can't see evidence that Ann Eaton handed in the silencer on 12 September. All these dates when silencers were found/handed in/tested by the lab and silencer numbers are doing my head in. I think someone else will have to explain it.  ;D
--------------------------------------

Ann Eaton handed the Bamber silencer in on 11th September 1985, not the 12th...

I understand your frustration, but everything is now known about each of these different identical looking silencers, and it becomes clear how easy it was for staff at the lab' to be easily fooled into thinking that there was only one silencer, when there were at last three different ones...

Ballistic expert attributed the blood flake as coming from inside the silencer, DB/1 -  (not me), I was merely pointing out, that Boutflour told COLP in 1991, that he used a razor blade to scrape off a flake of dried blood from the end of the silencer (DRB/1)  he found in the gun cupboard, and that he did not find that silencer in the gun cupboard on 10th August 1985, but rather it was found there on 11th September 1985...

Essex police and the relatives know when and why the Boutflour silencers ended up in police possession and when these were sent to the lab', I don't know if the silencers which belonged to them, had any blood or paint inside or upon them, all I know is that someone has made out a false case for Sheila's blood having been found inside the wrong silencer, and for paint from the kitchen aga, to have been deliberately put onto the end of one of the silencers, at some stage after 7th August 1985...

Why did the police take two additional parker hale silencers to the trial in October 1986, and why did they hand these back to the Boutflours after Jeremy was convicted, against signature?

If there was only one silencer at all times in the possession of Essex  police, how come the police had three different almost identical looking silencers in their possession, at the time of the trial?

What was behind all of this?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:15:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Diary Entries of a Conspirator...
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2011, 08:20:PM »
When I see proof from a police document written at the time that Ann Eaton handed in the silencer she found in the gun cupboard on 11th September 1985 I'll have another think about it.

Until then, I have no reason to think they would lie about it, and more importantly, I have no reason to think that the police would pretend that one silencer was another silencer.

The point is that the lab said there was blood which matched Sheila's in the silencer which they tested on 30th August, so if that was the Boutflour's silencer the police would have arrested them!