Jeremy's phone call to Julie Mugford on 6th August

[Kaldin]

My family has 'estranged' this and that... I think most families do.
Some where there is a real bitterness.

Usually it's between one small group and another, or between individuals and a group (or two individuals) when the animosity is truly intense. When it's one side of an entire family against another, it's not usually THAT intense (it's still a couple of folks at the heart, with the rest offering moral support, but their own anger isn't as great per se)

When I've seen bitterness come to the fore, someone might say "I hate that b'stard, he's never seeing the kids again" etc etc. But other members who are even on their side will say "well, I can't stand him either, but...."

And it's that part of the 'plot' I can't buy into. That they could all sit round the table and say "That scheming young Jeremy's going to get all that money, and he never gave a jot about them, let's make sure he goes down for life and we get the money" - and not one member thought "hold on a minute Ann, he's a tosser but...."

Maybe it was just David and Ann though. Would a brother and sister do that, at their ages? Man and wife, two lovers, maybe, brother and sister? I just don't know.

How many people on here are actually claiming that the relatives plotted and planted evidence though? I've said I'm a bit biased against them, but I haven't claimed that they planted evidence or anything.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

oh no, didn't mean to imply you had...

some have by implication pointed the finger at the family - by way of questioning how legitimate the whole silencer was/is and even when it was found, or what was done to it.
Others have just questioned the integrity of the handling of it, and if that compromised the results.

I think it's one thing to think the family seemed a bit keen, and acted in a way that doesn't seem quite befitting, and it's entirely another to take that extra step and say "so therefore this silencer they 'found'" came about dubiously so let's discount it.

As soon as the 'dubious silencer find' is questioned, it's virtually pointing the finger at the family unless it's then 'planted' by the police for the the family to find - which seems convoluted.

I have a similar issue with Mugford as I think you do with the family. If she's telling the truth (and I'm prepared to go with that) - she STILL sat on it for a month. In my mind, that means she actually considered being 'in on it' with him (after the fact) for a fair while.

I do accept an element of fear (for a couple of days), but when you're going away for weekends with him, it gets less credible... and I can't buy into the 'she couldn't quite bring herself to really believe it was him" either - if my wife called to say "she was going to murder someone, I might laugh it off" - if that person then ended up murdered the very same night - I doubt I'd be laughing it off!

1 month it took her, that's a long time when you're sleeping with a killer.
She was 21, I'll give her some slack for being a confused young woman.... but she wasn't a nun - she'd been involved in the cheque fraud, and the burglary - so she had a decent feel for the mess he was in, and she too would soon be in.
Shifty lady, very shifty

[HMEssex]

With this family -  who knows?

Don't forget the fight PE had with Ralph, days before.  The family were pretty much straight of the mark trying to implicate Jeremy, rooting around etc, they got the grandmother to change her will and they as good as pressurised the police to prosecute Jeremy. 

However, according to Mike, there seems to be more than one silencer anyway, so it's all a bit confusing to say the least.

But I find it hard to believe that the police missed seeing the silencer in the cupboard, when the family 'found' it 'just like that' in a box - meaning that it would make even less sense for the police to have missed seeing a big box themselves and not just a silencer tucked away somewhere.  But also I find it rather incredible that IF Jeremy had murdered his family with the silencer left on the rifle and left it with Sheila to incriminate her, and if he had been clever enough to remove the silencer so the rifle would be short enough for her to have been able to kill herself with it, why would he be daft enough to leave it in the cupboard downstairs and not get rid of it.

I think JM's testimony is so ridiculous too...

[TheBrilliantMistake]

With this family -  who knows?

Don't forget the fight PE had with Ralph, days before.  The family were pretty much straight of the mark trying to implicate Jeremy, rooting around etc, they got the grandmother to change her will and they as good as pressurised the police to prosecute Jeremy. 

However, according to Mike, there seems to be more than one silencer anyway, so it's all a bit confusing to say the least.

But I find it hard to believe that the police missed seeing the silencer in the cupboard, when the family 'found' it 'just like that' in a box - meaning that it would make even less sense for the police to have missed seeing a big box themselves and not just a silencer tucked away somewhere.  But also I find it rather incredible that IF Jeremy had murdered his family with the silencer left on the rifle and left it with Sheila to incriminate her, and if he had been clever enough to remove the silencer so the rifle would be short enough for her to have been able to kill herself with it, why would he be daft enough to leave it in the cupboard downstairs and not get rid of it.

I think JM's testimony is so ridiculous too...

Not necessarily my views, but 'arguments' for NOT getting rid of the silencer:

1) If it's noticed it's missing - how would you explain it?
2) If forensics prove a silencer was used, then they'll look for it - if it's not found - there's a killer.
3) If forensics don't prove a silencer was used, then there's no problem with it being in the house anyway (with much other gun stuff)
4) If that silencer ever turns up outside the house and is matched to the killing - he's done for
5) He may well have been cocky enough to think the police would settle for suicide anyway and therefore not bother with all the rest of the gun stuff (and he was so very nearly right where it not for pesky that janitor, oops family member Ann).

I 'think' I'd have been more tempted to leave the silencer next to Sheila though. But it's not a clear cut decision.

[Hartley]

How many people on here are actually claiming that the relatives plotted and planted evidence though? I've said I'm a bit biased against them, but I haven't claimed that they planted evidence or anything.

If the relatives thought that JB was guilty and thought it looked like he was going to get away with it then I can very much understand their persistence in contacting the police etc, it must surely be as equal a motive for their behaviour as the alleged inheritance grabbing scenario.

I don't buy the theory that the relatives planted evidence and framed JB (just my view, so don't shoot me for it!), but I do find it rather troubling that the silencer made it's way to Oak Farm before being handed in to the police, that just doesn't make sense to me.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

How many people on here are actually claiming that the relatives plotted and planted evidence though? I've said I'm a bit biased against them, but I haven't claimed that they planted evidence or anything.

If the relatives thought that JB was guilty and thought it looked like he was going to get away with it then I can very much understand their persistence in contacting the police etc, it must surely be as equal a motive for their behaviour as the alleged inheritance grabbing scenario.

I don't buy the theory that the relatives planted evidence and framed JB (just my view, so don't shoot me for it!), but I do find it rather troubling that the silencer made it's way to Oak Farm before being handed in to the police, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Me neither. I think I'd literally stop dead in my tracks and call the police there and then with "GET HERE NOW"

Even if they thought "oh just some gun stuff that needs sorting out, I'll take it home then drop it off with the police".... I can believe that....
but the very moment they say they started looking at it closely and thought they saw paint and blood, and a HAIR.
My God... STOP STOP STOP

And - If I DID think Jeremy had done it already at that stage, I'd be screaming at them to come and get it.