Sheila was the killer...

[Pete0001]

Post Pete0001

"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".


- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.

Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?

The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!

Sorry I wasn't having a go.

There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interprited differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the exisitance of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure

[Kaldin]

With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.

He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.

Yes, apologies he might know, bearing in mind that he was at the house for an evening meal that night.

Well he said he was there for a meal. 

[Newbury1]

Post Pete0001

"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".


- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.

Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?

The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!

Sorry I wasn't having a go.

There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interpreted differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the existence of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure

Thanks.

Most references in this case refer to one magazine being reloaded, but one of my very first thoughts on the case when I picked it up from the Sunday Times in July 2010 was how many magazines were kept at the farm, and were any stored preloaded and then trying (in vain) to establish the shooting sequence.

I believe Mike has made reference to 10 bullets being ballistically matched to the murder weapon , but 15 are maybes? (even though the prosecution based their case on all bullets being fired from the murder weapon).

Does anyone have a comment on this?

Again there are so many possibilities surrounding the gun, the bullets etc. I don't think we will categorically answer them! - hence the important date which is just over a week away

[Kaldin]

Post Pete0001

"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".


- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.

Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?

The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!

Sorry I wasn't having a go.

There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interpreted differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the existence of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure

Thanks.

Most references in this case refer to one magazine being reloaded, but one of my very first thoughts on the case when I picked it up from the Sunday Times in July 2010 was how many magazines were kept at the farm, and were any stored preloaded and then trying (in vain) to establish the shooting sequence.

I believe Mike has made reference to 10 bullets being ballistically matched to the murder weapon , but 15 are maybes? (even though the prosecution based their case on all bullets being fired from the murder weapon).

Does anyone have a comment on this?

Again there are so many possibilities surrounding the gun, the bullets etc. I don't think we will categorically answer them! - hence the important date which is just over a week away

I think it's very important to know if there were any other magazines in the house which could be preloaded. That wouldn't establish Jeremy's guilt or innocence because it could indicate two things. It could indicate why Sheila had so little debris from bullets on her hands, but equally it could indicate a level of pre-meditation which I don't think she would have thought of. In either case, it could explain why nobody was able to stop the killer, but that could apply to either Sheila or Jeremy.

Re the issue of another gun, that is not something I've thought about at all. I've seen comments by Mike about the bullet holes being different sizes and all kinds of speculation, but I'd have to give that some more thought. In particular, why would the police not mention another gun being at the scene?

[tom]

Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be  100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !   

[Kaldin]

Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be  100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !   

I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.

http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm

I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.

[tom]

Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be  100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !   

I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.

http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm

I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.

Go to the post ' secrets EP didnt want you to see ', next to SC body there is different blood stains on the carpet , these are some of the photos Peter Sutherst the photo expert as examined . Once there is blood in two different places around the body the case against JB collapses !

[Kaldin]

Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be  100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !   

I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.

http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm

I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.

Go to the post ' secrets EP didnt want you to see ', next to SC body there is different blood stains on the carpet , these are some of the photos Peter Sutherst the photo expert as examined . Once there is blood in two different places around the body the case against JB collapses !

They could be splatter from when the bullets went into her neck though. My point is that I'm not sure if the blood was moving from the wounds, which would indicate that she was killed later than they thought at first.

Are they sure that is Sheila's blood? Could it not be June's or Neville's?

[mike tesko]

Ammunition magazine had the capacity to hold, ten (10) bullets, with the capacity for another bullet to be loaded up into the weapons breach - making for a total of 11 bullets in the gun...

EP were puzzled and wanted to find out, where five additional bullets originated from, bearing in mind that they settled for there having been twenty five bullets fired during the incident. They found a new box of .22 ammunition on the kitchen worktop, which only had 29 bullets which could be associated with it, that were tipped out onto the kitchen worktop, alongside. There was one solitary bullet, which had a speck of blood upon it, that was still standing in the actual ammunition box...

A new box of .22 ammunition, like the one which was found on the Kitchen worktop close to the phone, would contain no less than 50 .bullets...

EP calculated that there were 20 bullets missing from the box of ammunition, and they settled for there having been twenty five (25) shots fired during the incident...

Police state that when the rifle was checked at the scene, it did not have bullets in its magazine, and there was no solitary bullet in its breach...

Ralph was shot eight times, four non fatal, four fatal
June was shot seven times, five non fatal, two fatal
Daniel was shot five times, all five fatal
Nicholas was shot three times, all three fatal
Shela was shot twice, one non fatal, one fatal

Twenty five shots fired...

Nine bullets cases found in main bedroom, four added by sleight of hand

eight bullet cases found in children's bedroom

One bullet case found on middle landing of main stairs

Three bullet cases found in kitchen

Four bullet cases found elsewhere at scene, and displaced to main bedroom acting upon the instruction of PI Miller

There was an official test firing of rifle on control bullets between 20th September 1985 and 2nd October 1985

There was an unofficial test firing of the same gun and other control ammunition on or around 11th September 1985 - 18th September 1985

One of the two bullets (PV/20) which was a fragmented bullet on 7th August 1985, became transformed into a whole bullet, by the time the official test firing of the rifle and control ammunition took place after 20th September 1985, which enabled the ballistic expert to link and associate it with the rifle...

Five bullet cases found at the scene, had double magazine markings upon  them, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/38, DRH/39 and DRH/19 - these were found in the main bedroom, the children bedroom, and the kitchen (according to the police case).

All the other 20 bullet cases, only had single magazine marks upon them...

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All of this material and information, is known to be FACT...

[Kaldin]

If Sheila had stopped bleeding the blood would have been flat and dark, not tubular and wet. If Jeremy had been the killer, rigor mortice would have set in and they would have been unable to move her from the bed onto the floor, then move her limbs.
  Ann Eaton confirmed in a COLP(?) statement that she'd been told by an officer that Sheila was on the bed before she ended up on the floor...
Hopefully Jeremy's defence team now have the photos(s).

Were there no photos of Sheila's body at the original trial?

[Kaldin]

First question. How did the police know that the box of ammunition was new?

[mike tesko]

EP and DPP were satisfied that there were two additional loads of the rifles ammunition magazine, and that weapon was fired in three separates sequences, where ten (10) bullets were fired during first phase, another ten (10) during second phase, and five (5) during last phase - these were the facts upon which the case against Jeremy was pursued, and on this basis, that is how the investigation into who got shot first, with the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the first load of the ammunition magazine took place...

These are the facts which the case was pursued against Jeremy, by the police, and the DPP...

Any attempts by anyone to try and change or alter the sequence with which all these bullets were fired, by speculating that there may only have been nine bullets, or eight bullets, fired in the first load of the gun, appears to be somewhat mischievous, with nothing to back such claims up...

Stick to the facts which were used and relied upon to prosecute Jeremy...

[Kaldin]

Next question. Even if five double-marked bullets were found at the scene, how do you know that they were the first to be loaded?

I'm quite interested in this news that the gun could hold 11 bullets. That could explain why there were 11 shots in the bedroom at June and Neville. That 11th bullet bothers me.

[Kaldin]

EP and DPP were satisfied that there were two additional loads of the rifles ammunition magazine, and that weapon was fired in three separates sequences, where ten (10) bullets were fired during first phase, another ten (10) during second phase, and five (5) during last phase - these were the facts upon which the case against Jeremy was pursued, and on this basis, that is how the investigation into who got shot first, with the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the first load of the ammunition magazine took place...

These are the facts which the case was pursued against Jeremy, by the police, and the DPP...

Any attempts by anyone to try and change or alter the sequence with which all these bullets were fired, by speculating that there may only have been nine bullets, or eight bullets, fired in the first load of the gun, appears to be somewhat mischievous, with nothing to back such claims up...

Stick to the facts which were used and relied upon to prosecute Jeremy...

It's not speculation - it's evidence from the Appeal document. Jeremy said he loaded the gun with eight to ten bullets. He then said he removed the magazine and a bullet from the breach. Are you saying the Appeal document is wrong?

[Kaldin]

Where is the evidence that four bullets were falsely attributed to the bedroom, and why would the police do that?