Named members of the raid team - have they pulled the wool over our eyes?

[Roch]

I used to think it had something to do with the need for two doctors to be present to section off Sheila under the mental health act, if she had been captured alive, but I now believe that Dr Harris was called out after Sheila was shot for the second time and that his identity is being kept secret in the same way the training exercise which took place inside the farmhouse involving the bodies of the victims in situ, panned out?

Do you not think this training exercise thing is a load of bollocks?  What I mean is that it had absolutely nothing to do with 'training'?

[mike tesko]

Do you not think this training exercise thing is a load of bollocks?  What I mean is that it had absolutely nothing to do with 'training'?

I think the police did a re-run after Sheila was shot for the second time. What I mean is, they re ran the entry into the farmhouse on the second occasion, and made out the bodies had been found where they ended up being photographed, but when they actually entered on the first occasion, the bodies of the adult victims we all in different positions and in Sheila's case her body moved from downstairs in the region of the kitchen, to upstairs in the bedroom...

There was also an occasion when Sheila's body was on the bed, at a time when she only had one wound to her neck, and it must have been after Sheila was shot for the second time that they did a re run of the entry into the premises, and came up with what they said in their prepared statements...

[Roch]

I think the police did a re-run after Sheila was shot for the second time. What I mean is, they re ran the entry into the farmhouse on the second occasion, and made out the bodies had been found where they ended up being photographed, but when they actually entered on the first occasion, the bodies of the adult victims we all in different positions and in Sheila's case her body moved from downstairs in the region of the kitchen, to upstairs in the bedroom...

There was also an occasion when Sheila's body was on the bed, at a time when she only had one wound to her neck, and it must have been after Sheila was shot for the second time that they did a re run of the entry into the premises, and came up with what they said in their prepared statements...

I have no doubt that this raid experienced very serious complications.  I just do not understand how nobody has blown the whistle from the inside in all this time.  What would be the purpose of moving the body of June Bamber?

[mike tesko]

I have yet to see the identities of the officers who did the training exercise inside the farmhouse, but as I say my bet is that it was the same officers who re-entered after Sheila was shot for the second time and they treated what they did as if it had been the first occasion they entered the farmhouse. If I am wrong, somebody will inform me of the identities of these other training officers, but I am led to believe that it was actually the same officers, and that two different versions of what took place existed...

Just to clarify...

An operation involving the discovery of two bodies downstairs, and three bodies upstairs, (where Sheila recovered and made it up to the bedroom and collapsed on the bed), hence why she was photographed there with only one wound on her neck, minus a rifle; followed by a second operation once Sheila received the second shot under the chin, where police re-entered the farmhouse at a time when there was only Ralph downstairs, and the other four bodies upstairs (including Sheila). By this stage, Sheila's body had been moved from the bed to the floor, hence why by this time she had blood running from the corners of her mouth and into her left eye socket?

[tonyb]

I don't recall that they were instructed specifically to shoot him. They certainly weren't instructed to keep on shooting him after he was already dead!

they fired multiple head shots to incapacitate him.you dont know there dead until certified. you dont single shot if you shoot,you shoot to kill IMO

[tonyb]

they fired multiple head shots to incapacitate him.you dont know there dead until certified. you dont single shot if you shoot,you shoot to kill IMO

I believe it was Clarisa(?)Dicks who gave the instruction ,but i may be mistaken

[mike tesko]

I have no doubt that this raid experienced very serious complications.  I just do not understand how nobody has blown the whistle from the inside in all this time.  What would be the purpose of moving the body of June Bamber?

To clear bed and search it for evidence, also to place her out of harms way next to the door where they could check her for a pulse to make sure she was not still alive in the same way Sheila had been during the early part of the operation. They moved Sheila's body and placed it alongside the edge of the bed on the floor so that they could also check the bed for evidence (in the same way)...

What appears to have happened, is that the rifle which WPC jeapes had seen to be leaning up against the bedroom window was used to fire the fatal shit under Sheila's chin, but it was not the weapon which fired the first non fatal shot to the side of the neck - this was why they had to do a substitution of bullet PV/20, which as is now known was a fragmented bullet on 7th August 1985, but by 20th September 1985, it had become transformed into a whole bullet to enable the ballistic expert to confirm that both bullets had been fired by the same rifle...

[Jackiepreece]

Rochy could you give us a quick up to date run down of what you think happened that night


My take on what happened that night is still Sheila was always responsible for the murders but I get a bit confused over the second bullet conspiracies

I do believe there would be numerous other murder/suicides like WHF if the general public had access to firearms like Sheila did.  There must be numerous other people with mental health issues but not the opportunity to cause the carnage that happened that night

[tonyb]

I believe it was Clarisa(?)Dicks who gave the instruction ,but i may be mistaken

to be accurate Cresida Dick, operational commander on the day, Firearms officers found to have no case to answer, coroner gave instruction for an open verdict

[Buddy]

I still think the fragmented bullet to the neck was a result of a ricochet whilst shooting the family.
Surely a bullet to soft tissue would not fragment especually when you consider the bullet to the brain was whole.

[mike tesko]

I still think the fragmented bullet to the neck was a result of a ricochet whilst shooting the family.
Surely a bullet to soft tissue would not fragment especually when you consider the bullet to the brain was whole.

OK...

but how did it become transformed into a whole bullet, in the interim period between 7th August and 20th September 1985?

[mike tesko]

OK...

but how did it become transformed into a whole bullet, in the interim period between 7th August and 20th September 1985?

and for what purpose?

[mike tesko]

and for what purpose?

What seems to be important to me, is the timing of the first shot, followed by the timing of the second shot, and the whereabouts of the rifle which was subsequently photographed on Sheila's body from 10am, onwards?

If when Sheila was originally shot, downstairs, the rifle was still leaning up against the bedroom window, upstairs, then of course that rifle could not have fired the first shot (downstairs) involving the fragmented bullet (PV/20)?

[Roch]

Rochy could you give us a quick up to date run down of what you think happened that night


My take on what happened that night is still Sheila was always responsible for the murders but I get a bit confused over the second bullet conspiracies

I do believe there would be numerous other murder/suicides like WHF if the general public had access to firearms like Sheila did.  There must be numerous other people with mental health issues but not the opportunity to cause the carnage that happened that night

Sheila was alive prior to the raid and died during the raid.  How things actually panned out in real terms from one to the other may never be known.  I still don't understand how they've managed to cover it up. I was reading this again today....  it's well written.  Is this the part that Scott Lomax wrote?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,369.0.html

[mike tesko]

Page 2 contents are recorded on the reverse of the wrong forms, the remaining log entries appear written on the correct forms, with some log contents re-written on pieces of foolscap paper...

(a) PSL 4321 - form A58 b

(b) PSL 4250 - C6

(c) Foolscap paper