Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...

[andrea]

julie mugford offered to view the bodies in the mortuary. to she if she could "commumnicate" with sheila...strange

[Pete0001]

Again this is another problem... the amount of information.

The most black and white events can be twisted and bent all out of shape if you look hard enough.

Without a shadow of doubt alot of errors where made... some just due to human error and mean nothing to the case as it stands... other mistakes may have lead to the imprisonment of an innocent man.

I couldn't say if I think he is innocent or not... but i do feel he was convicted on very shakey evidence and did not receive a fair trial.
The evidence that damns him is no longer available to test (moderator and blood/hair).. and the deffence have proved that alot of the points the prosecution made about Sheila not being able to shoot herself with the rifle (moderator on or off) is simply not true. They have questioned the photographs taken and submitted and the appaulling logs kept of what was a very high profile case.
Guilty or not I can't say.. but this kind of conviction can't be allowed to stand... the Police made far too many errors and the prosecution misled on far too many points for it to have been a fair trial.

Just my opinion

[Kaldin]

Again this is another problem... the amount of information.

The most black and white events can be twisted and bent all out of shape if you look hard enough.

Without a shadow of doubt alot of errors where made... some just due to human error and mean nothing to the case as it stands... other mistakes may have lead to the imprisonment of an innocent man.

I couldn't say if I think he is innocent or not... but i do feel he was convicted on very shakey evidence and did not receive a fair trial.
The evidence that damns him is no longer available to test (moderator and blood/hair).. and the deffence have proved that alot of the points the prosecution made about Sheila not being able to shoot herself with the rifle (moderator on or off) is simply not true. They have questioned the photographs taken and submitted and the appaulling logs kept of what was a very high profile case.
Guilty or not I can't say.. but this kind of conviction can't be allowed to stand... the Police made far too many errors and the prosecution misled on far too many points for it to have been a fair trial.

Just my opinion

I pretty much agree with you. I'm not sure about his guilt or innocence either, which is why I'm quite persistent when Mike claims something - I want to know where the proof is. 

Like you, I think the investigation was so shoddy, and the witholding of evidence was so appalling that it must be looked at again very thoroughly. No more messing about, no more hiding of evidence, no more dismissing of facts as irrelevant. It would be really useful if they could cross-examine some of the police officers again to clear up this business about two bodies allegedly being seen in the kitchen too.

[Kaldin]

I think that the Guardian video, currently on JB's website, shows an image of Ralph's body if you freeze it as it begins to show the kitchen scene.

Had a look at that but I can't see a body there.

[cazbub]

Completely agree with Pete0001 and Kaldin, very shoddy investigation and too much evidence was witheld to allow a fair trial.

I also cannot decide if he's guilty or innocent, there simply isn't enough proof either way in my opinion, it's all speculation. What IF this happened, what IF that happened!

Also think that cross examining the police officers about this two bodies on entry to the building is needed. If Sheila was in the kitchen, then moved unnoticed upstairs it is very odd.

[Kaldin]

Completely agree with Pete0001 and Kaldin, very shoddy investigation and too much evidence was witheld to allow a fair trial.

I also cannot decide if he's guilty or innocent, there simply isn't enough proof either way in my opinion, it's all speculation. What IF this happened, what IF that happened!

Also think that cross examining the police officers about this two bodies on entry to the building is needed. If Sheila was in the kitchen, then moved unnoticed upstairs it is very odd.

I can't decide either, and I agree there isn't enough proof either way. I'm trying to go on what's likely based on the evidence, but there always seems to be a sticking point with every theory.

They really need to sort out this business of there allegedly being two bodies in the kitchen. I find it very hard to believe that she shot herself in the kitchen and then went upstairs and shot herself again when the police were in the house.

[cazbub]

So do I, it seems ludicrous! The police would surely have heard her moving about, as someone with a gunshot wound wouldn't be able to sneak about quietly.

[Pete0001]

So do I, it seems ludicrous! The police would surely have heard her moving about, as someone with a gunshot wound wouldn't be able to sneak about quietly.

Exactly theres so much talk of people walking around after being shot, in some cases multiple times, without concern of how messy that would have most likely been not to mention painful.

[cazbub]

In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations

[Kaldin]

In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations

There seems to be remarkably little blood around for so many injuries - or at least there is very little information on it.  You'd expect Neville to at least transfer blood to the wall when he was going down the stairs to the kitchen after he was shot in the bedroom.

I did find this bit in the appeal document.

Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.

I'm not sure what that means. It looks like they mean there was blood on the wall in the hall just outside the kitchen door to the hall. That suggests that Neville came down the main stairs to go to the kitchen after he was shot, not the back stairs to the kitchen. There's no mention of any other blood on the walls though, or on the stair rail.

[cazbub]

Ah well I suppose that shows that he did move downstairs after he was shot. Although why there is no mention of any blood on the stair rail is still odd.  Does anyone know if there was blood on the phone in the kitchen, alleged to have been used to call Jeremy and the police?

If not Neville would have been too ing and fro ing up and down the stairs while his daughter was running about with a gun!

[Kaldin]

Ah well I suppose that shows that he did move downstairs after he was shot. Although why there is no mention of any blood on the stair rail is still odd.  Does anyone know if there was blood on the phone in the kitchen, alleged to have been used to call Jeremy and the police?

If not Neville would have been too ing and fro ing up and down the stairs while his daughter was running about with a gun!

I know a bit about that from the appeal document. Apparently, the telephone in the kitchen had no visible blood on it. The prosecution obviously thought that meant that Neville had not phoned Jeremy or there would have been blood on it. It didn't seem to occur to the defence that Neville might have phoned Jeremy before he was shot.

There was a suggestion at the appeal that the police had replaced the receiver and therefore wiped off any blood, but that theory was dismissed.

There was some blood on the surface about a foot from the phone apparently, but I'm not sure of the relevance of that.

[mike tesko]

In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations

-----------------------------------------------------

Hang on a minute, lets get the fact right, (1) there is no blood trail from the main bedroom leading all the way downstairs to where Ralph Bambers body ended up, and so any suggestion that he was shot up to four times in the bedroom, cannot be seriously entertained. None of Ralph Bambers blood was found to be present at all inside the main bedroom, and so, as i say, or at least as I am trying to point out, I urge anyone who is remotely interested in the truth surrounding this feature of the case, to think long and hard and ask yourself if Ralph could have been shot up to four times in the bedroom and leave no microscopic trace of blood at all, anywhere in the bedroom, to suggest or to confirm that he had even been there in the bedroom at all, at the time the shootings started?

(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...

The smear of "O" type blood found on wallpaper on the main stairs, might not necessarily have been the blood from Ralph as everyone is assuming, since, the two child victims also had "O" type blood, and the bloodstained wall paper could just as easily have been blood from them...

[Pete0001]

(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...

But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.

[Kaldin]

In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations

-----------------------------------------------------

Hang on a minute, lets get the fact right, (1) there is no blood trail from the main bedroom leading all the way downstairs to where Ralph Bambers body ended up, and so any suggestion that he was shot up to four times in the bedroom, cannot be seriously entertained. None of Ralph Bambers blood was found to be present at all inside the main bedroom, and so, as i say, or at least as I am trying to point out, I urge anyone who is remotely interested in the truth surrounding this feature of the case, to think long and hard and ask yourself if Ralph could have been shot up to four times in the bedroom and leave no microscopic trace of blood at all, anywhere in the bedroom, to suggest or to confirm that he had even been there in the bedroom at all, at the time the shootings started?

(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...

The smear of "O" type blood found on wallpaper on the main stairs, might not necessarily have been the blood from Ralph as everyone is assuming, since, the two child victims also had "O" type blood, and the bloodstained wall paper could just as easily have been blood from them...

What about the 13 cartridge cases found in the bedroom? I have a problem with that too, but I haven't seen any evidence that those cartridges were not there.

The blood on the wall is unlikely to have come from the boys as they were shot in their beds.