Author Topic: A Question For Hartley  (Read 12235 times)

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Offline bob

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2012, 01:36:AM »
A bit OTT there apologies :-[
Glad to see this post Cliff, because as I caught up with the thread I was a bit shocked by your comments.
I expect it from the more obvious candidates but you're usually a bit more reasoned  :)

Newbury1

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2012, 10:46:AM »
Nick, no offence but you do the same when you demand that Mike Tesko substantiate every nuance relating to allegations of perverting the course of justice, fabrication of evidence etc.  As if EP keep a 'R v Bamber Corruption File' just in case the defence need it.

Hi Roch, no offence taken, and like I said the point was not important to me. It just formed part of the position you were taking with Hartley and I didn't follow what you meant. I just asked for an explanation.

I always present my points as theories which I cannot prove. Unlike others I do not present theories as facts and therefore I will always want proof before accepting theories as facts. Just the same as Kaldin and Hartley.

You know my stance on JB and SC following our pm's, so I try to undermine some of the Forum theories to test them. Or present others to have them tested.

Edit - I don't feel I have demanded anything from anyone, but I will be persistent if info. is offered and delayed or simply not forthcoming.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 02:16:PM by Nick »

Newbury1

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2012, 10:47:AM »
Lighten up a bit Nick, ;)

No problemo!  8)

Offline Roch

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2012, 04:00:PM »
Quote
Unlike others I do not present theories as facts and therefore I will always want proof before accepting theories as facts.

It's a pity the same level of exacting scrutiny was not applied at trial  ::)

Nick I do see where you are coming from and it's important to note (as per your pms) that individuals approach the case from very different angles.  This is bound to cause differences and misunderstandings between posters.   

Regarding your point about 'Kaldin and Hartley'.  Firstly, Kaldin was inclined approx 60/40 in favour of innocence in my view.  Hartley looks to be about 95/5 in favour of guilt.

Secondly, In the event of there having been a genuine case of fabrication, omission, moulding and editing in order to produce the evidence that has secured this conviction, how ironic it will be for all those who have crowed about substantiating their arguments on the forum and elsewhere by the use of such evidence. 

They are going to have quite a few egg dribbles down their chins and soiling their clothes.




Chochokeira

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2012, 04:10:PM »
It's a pity the same level of exacting scrutiny was not applied at trial  ::)

Nick I do see where you are coming from and it's important to note (as per your pms) that individuals approach the case from very different angles.  This is bound to cause differences and misunderstandings between posters.   

Regarding your point about 'Kaldin and Hartley'.  Firstly, Kaldin was inclined approx 60/40 in favour of innocence in my view.  Hartley looks to be about 95/5 in favour of guilt.

Secondly, In the event of there having been a genuine case of fabrication, omission, moulding and editing in order to produce the evidence that has secured this conviction, how ironic it will be for all those who have crowed about substantiating their arguments on the forum and elsewhere by the use of such evidence. 

They are going to have quite a few egg dribbles down their chins and soiling their clothes.


Good points, Rocky!

Offline Roch

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2012, 04:17:PM »
Just to clarify, I'm not criticising Hartley for taking the stance that he does re guilt per se.  I'm just trying to point out that in my opinion, there is a risk attached to employing heavy reliance upon the evidence produced in the official version of events, to substantiate arguments. 

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2012, 04:32:PM »
Just to clarify, I'm not criticising Hartley for taking the stance that he does re guilt per se.  I'm just trying to point out that in my opinion, there is a risk attached to employing heavy reliance upon the evidence produced in the official version of events, to substantiate arguments.

As opposed to relying on what, to form an opinion? Piss takes and pipe dreams?

What is with all of the 'egg on faces' etc comments? You seem like a completely different person just lately, more interested in trying to prove an individual right or wrong rather than simply discussing the case.

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2012, 04:33:PM »
As opposed to relying on what, to form an opinion? Piss takes and pipe dreams?

What is with all of the 'egg on faces' etc comments? You seem like a completely different person just lately, more interested in trying to prove an individual right or wrong rather than simply discussing the case.

Apologies for the 'piss takes and pipe dreams' comment.  :-[

Offline Roch

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2012, 05:40:PM »
Apologies for the 'piss takes and pipe dreams' comment.  :-[

That's okay.  I understand that you and many others will  not see the official version of the case in this light.  But I think the point I'm trying to make (badly) is the following: 

A case against somebody is in some way falsified or at the very least 'sexed up'.  The case then becomes accepted at large by many... but by no means all. 

Those responsible for the falsification are likely to cover their tracks, making it very difficult for other people to later come along and fully piece together what really took place.

Because of the track covering, the people who come along and try to piece together what really took place are accused of being unable to substantiate their claims and theories.

But the people who are accusing track un-coverers regarding this lack of substantiation, have themselves fallen in to the trap of accepting a false or sexed up case in the first place.  Since that false case is already down on paper, anyone wishing to refer to it in order to substantiate their own arguments against those of the track un-coverers, can do so with relative ease. 

 :D

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2012, 06:43:PM »
I have no idea what that means.  :-[ It sounds absolutely brilliant though.  ;D

Offline Roch

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2012, 08:00:PM »
I have no idea what that means.  :-[ It sounds absolutely brilliant though.  ;D

I'm not coming across very coherently  :D  I'll have to think of a way of phrasing it differently.

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2012, 08:13:PM »
I'm not coming across very coherently  :D  I'll have to think of a way of phrasing it differently.
To be fair I think I do know what you are getting at.

Offline Roch

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2012, 09:41:PM »
To be fair I think I do know what you are getting at.

Cheers.  I'd resigned my self to sharing my island with Tyler only.  She normally gets where I'm coming from. 

tyler

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2012, 10:00:PM »
Cheers.  I'd resigned my self to sharing my island with Tyler only.  She normally gets where I'm coming from.

Indeed Roch.Your post made perfect sense to me!

Offline HMEssex

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2012, 10:50:PM »
I'm not going to build a fire on our island  ;)   Better sharpen that Bowie knife though... think I spotted an intruder...



Blimey!  Sounds like a forum romance  :)