Author Topic: A Question For Hartley  (Read 12231 times)

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Buddy

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2012, 03:51:PM »
Me too Roch. I'm a bit thick to boot. :D
Keep em guessing Dave

Chochokeira

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 03:54:PM »
You see I find that part of your post to be slightly strange, considering I have made many lengthy posts on the subject.

Whether something was presented to the Jury or not is unimportant and perhaps highlights your lack of understanding. A more relevant argument would be to ask why something had been withheld from the defence team, thus removing their opportunity to present such evidence to the Jury.

As I have said before on many occasions, I believe the phrase 'It's been withheld under PII' to be grossly overused, I believe that many of the documents claimed to be unavailable, were actually very much available at the original trial, this is very clear by the fact that much of the information is actually contained in trial transcripts, applications to the court of appeal and appeal judgements, a long time before they are claimed to have been released.

Another important factor to consider, is that not a single piece of information or evidence which has been released, indicates that a miscarriage of justice has occurred in this case. That is not simply my opinion, but is taken from the fact that despite two appeals and the current submission to the CCRC, Jeremy's conviction and sentence remains intact.
The upcoming decision of the CCRC will likely reaffirm this point.

There is nothing which has come to light which detracts from the prosecutions case and subsequent Appeal Judgements, I do not automatically consider that something may be withheld and may possibly contain something to contradict this. Something cannot be disclosed if it does not exist.

In my humble opinion.


I have challenged your astonishing claim that the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence is an insignificant matter on several occasions, Hartley.

The fact is that non-disclosure and withheld evidence are major issues in this case, the various proofs of which strongly support the defence's case for a miscarriage of justice.

For goodness sake, Hartley!  The defence were forced to take these issues to court. The fact that they were successful in the claim they brought before the court (see the reference to this below - yet again) clearly demonstrates that key evidence was withheld from, not just the defence, but the judge and jury in this case too.

"With the Bamber case, the key issue has been, and remains, the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence. Early in 2004, Bamber's new defence team looked at the evidence again, and exhibit 29 caught their attention in particular. It was a document listing some radio messages from the scene of the crime. The defence wondered whether it might be the first page of a longer document rather than a complete document in itself, so they sought clarification. Essex constabulary was adamant that exhibit 29 was a whole document and had been available to the defence for the trial. Unconvinced,

Bamber's defence team took the matter to court in March 2004. It was successful, and the police produced the entire document. Exhibit 29, it transpired, was not a single-page document, and Bamber's solicitors received by fax a 24-page summary of radio communications. They then took the unusual step of writing to both the trial judge and the chief prosecution counsel, inquiring if either had known at the time of the trial of the existence of the lengthier log of radio messages. Both replied that they had not.

On receiving the 24 pages, the defence immediately noticed that the first two pages had not only been re-written on different paper from the rest, but had been edited. A comparison with police witness statements revealed that several key radio messages that were made had been left out. Why?

The defence therefore asked for the original document so that it could be sent for electrostatic document analysis testing, but Essex constabulary refused. The request has been repeated many times, and on each occasion the constabulary has refused."

The disclosure of the radio message log was not the only dramatic development last March. Bamber's defence had requested only one document. However, perhaps inadvertently, the police also provided evidence that had not been requested—pages from a contemporaneous telephone log and from a contemporaneous incident report. The defence had not known that either existed. It was immediately apparent that the two logs and the incident report that the police had withheld contained details that were entirely inconsistent with the case put by the prosecution at Bamber's trial. "




For you to continue to suggest that for EP to withhold such evidence from the defence, judge and jury was trifling and unimportant - when it is a very clear indication that a serious miscarriage of justice occurred in this case - is astounding Hartley.

How can you continue to look at this case in such a biased and blinkered manner?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:01:PM by Chochokeira »

Chochokeira

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2012, 03:55:PM »
I wouldn't fancy watching you use this same reasoning to Eddie Gilfoyle.  Well I would... but only at a safe distance.


Good point, Rocky.

Newbury1

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2012, 04:11:PM »
Keep em guessing Dave

Even though I asked roch for an explanation its a relative non-point to me, but thanks for your input and grown up stance  ???

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2012, 04:15:PM »

I have challenged your astonishing claim that the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence is an insignificant matter on several occasions, Hartley.

The fact is that non-disclosure and withheld evidence are major issues in this case, the various proofs of which strongly support the defence's case for a miscarriage of justice.

For goodness sake, Hartley!  The defence were forced to take these issues to court. The fact that they were successful in the claim they brought before the court (see the reference to this below - yet again) clearly demonstrates that key evidence was withheld from, not just the defence, but the judge and jury in this case too.

"With the Bamber case, the key issue has been, and remains, the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence. Early in 2004, Bamber's new defence team looked at the evidence again, and exhibit 29 caught their attention in particular. It was a document listing some radio messages from the scene of the crime. The defence wondered whether it might be the first page of a longer document rather than a complete document in itself, so they sought clarification. Essex constabulary was adamant that exhibit 29 was a whole document and had been available to the defence for the trial. Unconvinced,

Bamber's defence team took the matter to court in March 2004. It was successful, and the police produced the entire document. Exhibit 29, it transpired, was not a single-page document, and Bamber's solicitors received by fax a 24-page summary of radio communications. They then took the unusual step of writing to both the trial judge and the chief prosecution counsel, inquiring if either had known at the time of the trial of the existence of the lengthier log of radio messages. Both replied that they had not.

On receiving the 24 pages, the defence immediately noticed that the first two pages had not only been re-written on different paper from the rest, but had been edited. A comparison with police witness statements revealed that several key radio messages that were made had been left out. Why?

The defence therefore asked for the original document so that it could be sent for electrostatic document analysis testing, but Essex constabulary refused. The request has been repeated many times, and on each occasion the constabulary has refused."

The disclosure of the radio message log was not the only dramatic development last March. Bamber's defence had requested only one document. However, perhaps inadvertently, the police also provided evidence that had not been requested—pages from a contemporaneous telephone log and from a contemporaneous incident report. The defence had not known that either existed. It was immediately apparent that the two logs and the incident report that the police had withheld contained details that were entirely inconsistent with the case put by the prosecution at Bamber's trial. "




For you to continue to suggest that for EP to withhold such evidence from the defence, judge and jury was trifling and unimportant - when it is a very clear indication that a serious miscarriage of justice occurred in this case - is astounding Hartley.

How can you continue to look at this case in such a biased and blinkered manner?

Well that's exactly the point. What you are referring to as key evidence which contradicts the case put forward by the prosecution, actually is nothing of the kind, as has been assessed by the CCRC with their preliminary decision. Whether that preliminary decision changes or not we will find out soon.

I think even the staunchest of Jeremys supporters would admit that there is no evidence that he is innocent. Yes there is a lot of speculation and theories, but there is no definitive evidence. (Or at least none which has been presented as such on this forum).

I do not see it as a valid argument to say that withheld evidence must show Jeremy to be innocent, simply because it's been withheld. The reason for this is immediately obvious and apparent by the simple fact that documents which have been released, have not indicated that Jeremy is innocent.

I am equally stunned that others are happy to just assume that there is something yet to be seen which shows Jeremy to be innocent.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:16:PM by Hartley »

Newbury1

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2012, 04:19:PM »
I am equally stunned that others are happy to just assume that there is something yet to be seen which shows Jeremy to be innocent.

At best its called hope, at worst I guess its clutching at staws!

Buddy

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2012, 04:26:PM »

I have challenged your astonishing claim that the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence is an insignificant matter on several occasions, Hartley.

The fact is that non-disclosure and withheld evidence are major issues in this case, the various proofs of which strongly support the defence's case for a miscarriage of justice.

For goodness sake, Hartley!  The defence were forced to take these issues to court. The fact that they were successful in the claim they brought before the court (see the reference to this below - yet again) clearly demonstrates that key evidence was withheld from, not just the defence, but the judge and jury in this case too.

"With the Bamber case, the key issue has been, and remains, the non-disclosure of evidence to the defence. Early in 2004, Bamber's new defence team looked at the evidence again, and exhibit 29 caught their attention in particular. It was a document listing some radio messages from the scene of the crime. The defence wondered whether it might be the first page of a longer document rather than a complete document in itself, so they sought clarification. Essex constabulary was adamant that exhibit 29 was a whole document and had been available to the defence for the trial. Unconvinced,

Bamber's defence team took the matter to court in March 2004. It was successful, and the police produced the entire document. Exhibit 29, it transpired, was not a single-page document, and Bamber's solicitors received by fax a 24-page summary of radio communications. They then took the unusual step of writing to both the trial judge and the chief prosecution counsel, inquiring if either had known at the time of the trial of the existence of the lengthier log of radio messages. Both replied that they had not.

On receiving the 24 pages, the defence immediately noticed that the first two pages had not only been re-written on different paper from the rest, but had been edited. A comparison with police witness statements revealed that several key radio messages that were made had been left out. Why?

The defence therefore asked for the original document so that it could be sent for electrostatic document analysis testing, but Essex constabulary refused. The request has been repeated many times, and on each occasion the constabulary has refused."

The disclosure of the radio message log was not the only dramatic development last March. Bamber's defence had requested only one document. However, perhaps inadvertently, the police also provided evidence that had not been requested—pages from a contemporaneous telephone log and from a contemporaneous incident report. The defence had not known that either existed. It was immediately apparent that the two logs and the incident report that the police had withheld contained details that were entirely inconsistent with the case put by the prosecution at Bamber's trial. "




For you to continue to suggest that for EP to withhold such evidence from the defence, judge and jury was trifling and unimportant - when it is a very clear indication that a serious miscarriage of justice occurred in this case - is astounding Hartley.

How can you continue to look at this case in such a biased and blinkered manner?
Good post Keira.

Offline grahameb

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2012, 04:33:PM »
Well that's exactly the point. What you are referring to as key evidence which contradicts the case put forward by the prosecution, actually is nothing of the kind, as has been assessed by the CCRC with their preliminary decision. Whether that preliminary decision changes or not we will find out soon.

I think even the staunchest of Jeremys supporters would admit that there is no evidence that he is innocent. Yes there is a lot of speculation and theories, but there is no definitive evidence. (Or at least none which has been presented as such on this forum).

I do not see it as a valid argument to say that withheld evidence must show Jeremy to be innocent, simply because it's been withheld. The reason for this is immediately obvious and apparent by the simple fact that documents which have been released, have not indicated that Jeremy is innocent.

I am equally stunned that others are happy to just assume that there is something yet to be seen which shows Jeremy to be innocent.
One thing I still can't understand though? Why did the police make such a song and dance about not revealing all this non important stuff then? I don't get it?

Offline jon

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2012, 04:37:PM »
One thing I still can't understand though? Why did the police make such a song and dance about not revealing all this non important stuff then? I don't get it?
I know, instead of spending ten's of thousand's of tax payer's money , all they had to do was hire Hartley for a nominal fee !! He can explain them away , in no time .

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2012, 04:39:PM »
One thing I still can't understand though? Why did the police make such a song and dance about not revealing all this non important stuff then? I don't get it?

I have no idea, maybe costs, maybe legitimate PII reasons, such as the mortuary photographs which were accompanied by many conditions which are designed to stop them from making their way into the public domain.

As the disclosed evidence has not indicated that there is a big conspiracy, I very much doubt that that is the reason.

To have not even the slightest idea why something has been withheld, yet simply decide that it was part of some grand conspiracy, is illogical in the extreme. In my opinion.

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2012, 04:42:PM »
I know, instead of spending ten's of thousand's of tax payer's money , all they had to do was hire Hartley for a nominal fee !! He can explain them away , in no time .


Am I really being chastised for offering an opinion?  ::)

What else should one be doing on a forum which has been set up to discuss the case?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:45:PM by Hartley »

Offline jon

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2012, 04:48:PM »

Am I really being chastised for offering an opinion?  ::)

What else should one be doing on a forum which has been set up to discuss the case?
Tell us , what mistake's in your opinion did EP make during this inquiry ? Or was it a flawless inquiry ?  I dont mean , what they should have done , i mean what did they do wrong , in your opinion ?

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2012, 04:50:PM »
Tell us , what mistake's in your opinion did EP make during this inquiry ? Or was it a flawless inquiry ?  I dont mean , what they should have done , i mean what did they do wrong , in your opinion ?

My opinion roughly coincides with the findings of the detailed COLP investigation carried out in 1991.

Jackiepreece

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2012, 04:52:PM »
Hartley being too cocky sometimes is not very nice when we are discussing such serious issues as a mans life.

What's that saying pride before a fall.

Me today I couldn't be happier the legal and media people seem to be talking in a positive way about a referral

I suppose being referred for an appeal is optimistic but the media people I follow on twitter think it's a real possibility

Still I suppose we will have to see as I don't have any more knowledge about the case than you do

Hartley

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Re: A Question For Hartley
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2012, 04:59:PM »
Hartley being too cocky sometimes is not very nice when we are discussing such serious issues as a mans life.

What's that saying pride before a fall.

Me today I couldn't be happier the legal and media people seem to be talking in a positive way about a referral

I suppose being referred for an appeal is optimistic but the media people I follow on twitter think it's a real possibility

Still I suppose we will have to see as I don't have any more knowledge about the case than you do

I wasn't trying to be cocky. In fact all I am doing is responding to posts and questions put to me, if you are not interested in what I have to say then may I suggest you stop asking me questions.

It's a little weird to ask me a question and then moan that I've answered it.  ::)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 05:00:PM by Hartley »