And so to the truth of the matter (how Sheila communicated with police)?

[tonyb]

Mimicking of the dog did not help matters, there were periods during that one hour of activity (between about 5:25am to 6:30am) that the firearms team did not know of the whereabouts of Sheila inside the farmhouse, due to the noises she was making (which got relayed through the 999 system in the control room to the firearms team at the scene). They didn't know if she was upstairs, or downstairs, simply because they did not know at that stage which telephone handset was off its cradle?

Police didn't know it was the telephone in the kitchen which had its handset off its cradle, until they got into the kitchen at about 7:30am...

But as soon as WPC Julia Jeapes took up her position in the role of containment and observation, and she spotted the rifle leaning up against the bedroom window at about 7:15am, police gambled on Sheila being upstairs in the bedroom, where they knew there should have been a telephone - which was why the raid team went in very quickly after the sighting made by Jeapes. Police thought Sheila was upstairs ion the bedroom, and as long as somebody kept sight of the gun at the window, and that is precisely what WPC Jeapes did, or as the case may be, what some other police officers did, using the scopes on their rifles...

You've kind of answered your own question Mike. "But as soon as WPC Julia Jeapes took up her position in the role of containment and observation".That is her assigned task in the SOP at the WHF incident.Until she is in her assigned position to pass a qualified overview of events in her field of view then the ground controller would be unable to have an informed view of the entire site.Therefore I would doubt the firearms team would "storm" the building. This also however raises another question. If Jeapes reports "rifle in window" then it must be assumed that it was such. Also,for my info,was Jeapes's roll that day as a sniper?

[mike tesko]

You've kind of answered your own question Mike. "But as soon as WPC Julia Jeapes took up her position in the role of containment and observation".That is her assigned task in the SOP at the WHF incident.Until she is in her assigned position to pass a qualified overview of events in her field of view then the ground controller would be unable to have an informed view of the entire site.Therefore I would doubt the firearms team would "storm" the building. This also however raises another question. If Jeapes reports "rifle in window" then it must be assumed that it was such. Also,for my info,was Jeapes's roll that day as a sniper?

Fact of the matter is, that within a very short time of WPC Jeapes reporting that she could see what appeared to be a rifle leaning up against the bedroom window, the raid team commenced its approach to enter the farmhouse. Other police officers who had been at the scene since 5am, were also in possession of weapons with scopes on, and they would almost certainly have zeroed in on any windows to see what could be seen, and if that rifle had been resting against that bedroom window from an earlier time, you can bet we would have heard about it? 

In any event...

By the time the firearms team got upstairs into the bedroom, the rifle was apparently not resting against the same bedroom window, now who moved it in the interim period?

[tonyb]

Fact of the matter is, that within a very short time of WPC Jeapes reporting that she could see what appeared to be a rifle leaning up against the bedroom window, the raid team commenced its approach to enter the farmhouse. Other police officers who had been at the scene since 5am, were also in possession of weapons with scopes on, and they would almost certainly have zeroed in on any windows to see what could be seen, and if that rifle had been resting against that bedroom window from an earlier time, you can bet we would have heard about it? 

In any event...

By the time the firearms team got upstairs into the bedroom, the rifle was apparently not resting against the same bedroom window, now who moved it in the interim period?

That Mike,is the "million dollar" question. If it can be PROVED that Jeapes saw a rifle, and then when the raid team entered it wasn't there, IMO it must be SC. But i emphasize PROVE. Jeapes could easily have been mistaken would surely then be the first line of defence,so to speak. Then you have the CCRC (?) stating the officers statements are more reliable than photos (?) QED Rifle must of been there. I don't know, the more you delve, the muddier the water seems to get.

[mike tesko]

That Mike,is the "million dollar" question. If it can be PROVED that Jeapes saw a rifle, and then when the raid team entered it wasn't there, IMO it must be SC. But i emphasize PROVE. Jeapes could easily have been mistaken would surely then be the first line of defence,so to speak. Then you have the CCRC (?) stating the officers statements are more reliable than photos (?) QED Rifle must of been there. I don't know, the more you delve, the muddier the water seems to get.

 WPC Julia Jeapes was a trained firearms instructor, who was using her scope on her rifle when she spotted what appeared to be a rifle leaning up against the bedroom window. I doubt very much that she was mistaken - what else was there in the bedroom window that she could have mistaken for a rifle leaning up against it?

Nothing in any of the crime scene photographs...

OK...

Lets substitute the rifle leaning against the bedroom window at the time WPC Jeapes made the crucial sighting, for something else, no mater what that something else might have been or could have been. What happened to that something that was leaning there against the bedroom window, which was not there by the time the raid team got into the bedroom, and later when PC Bird took his crime scene pictures?

Who moved it from the window, whatever it was?

[Roch]

That Mike,is the "million dollar" question. If it can be PROVED that Jeapes saw a rifle, and then when the raid team entered it wasn't there, IMO it must be SC. But i emphasize PROVE. Jeapes could easily have been mistaken would surely then be the first line of defence,so to speak. Then you have the CCRC (?) stating the officers statements are more reliable than photos (?) QED Rifle must of been there. I don't know, the more you delve, the muddier the water seems to get.

There is a catch here and I have argued this many times.  If Jeapes is mistaken, then what other long thin item did she spot propped up against the window, that could have been mistaken for a rifle?  And where in the SOC photographic record, is the photograph of this other alternative long thin item propped up against the window?

Unless of course, Jeapes witnessed a trick of the light.

[tyler]

According to Jeremys defence team,they now have a statement in their possesion from a Pc Brown (I think) who also states that he saw a rifle in the window.

[Buddy]

Could have been a broom I suppose!

[Roch]

Could have been a broom I suppose!

Is there a broom in the SOC photos?

[Buddy]

Is there a broom in the SOC photos?

You are unable to see it Dave, cop were using it to sweep up the sugar that they spilt.

[Roch]

You are unable to see it Dave, cop were using it to sweep up the sugar that they spilt.

That's what the CCRC's photographic expert said. 

[mertol22]

That's what the CCRC's photographic expert said.

expert...pull the other one

[Roch]

expert...pull the other one

Yeah i was just kidding Mertol.

[grahameb]

Yeah i was just kidding Mertol.

The police never clean up after them.

[Buddy]

The police never clean up after them.

They do if they cock up Grahame. :D

[mike tesko]

There is a catch here and I have argued this many times.  If Jeapes is mistaken, then what other long thin item did she spot propped up against the window, that could have been mistaken for a rifle?  And where in the SOC photographic record, is the photograph of this other alternative long thin item propped up against the window?

Unless of course, Jeapes witnessed a trick of the light.

Same trick of light witnessed earlier by PS Bews and PC Myall?