element of suprise eliminated by dogs in house and outbuilldings

[smiffy]

Note that Bews statements or trial transcript are ominously missing from this forum. 

Sorry, just being cynical again. 

That is not JB's fault now is it.
You have seen the Bews video etc so know something was seen etc so stop acting like an idiot. Your clearly not an idiot Hartley so there is something more sinister and dishonest behind some of your posts.

[ngb1066]

Note that Bews statements or trial transcript are ominously missing from this forum. 

Sorry, just being cynical again. 

Mike may not have them.

[Hartley]

Mike may not have them.

Possibly, or Saxbys, Myalls or Collins.

[ngb1066]

Possibly, or Saxbys, Myalls or Collins.

I am sure if Mike has these statements he will post them.  He has posted a lot of material which can be seen as damaging to Jeremy's case, so he has demonstrated that he is prepared to be open about the evidence.

 

[Hartley]

I am sure if Mike has these statements he will post them.  He has posted a lot of material which can be seen as damaging to Jeremy's case, so he has demonstrated that he is prepared to be open about the evidence.

As I said, I was being cynical, I believe he does have these statements, I do recall him referring to them in the past, although I forget where without searching.

[grahameb]

As I said, I was being cynical, I believe he does have these statements, I do recall him referring to them in the past, although I forget where without searching.

What was your purpose for wanting them hartley? What did you want to check?

[Hartley]

What was your purpose for wanting them hartley? What did you want to check?

Everything, they are the first officers on the scene, and the firearms officer who looked through the window. The sheer quantity of theories and discussions concerning these people on the forum, makes me wonder why they have not been posted.

[smiffy]

original handwritten ones would be best ...

[grahameb]

I am sure if Mike has these statements he will post them.  He has posted a lot of material which can be seen as damaging to Jeremy's case, so he has demonstrated that he is prepared to be open about the evidence.

Yes. I can't see anything suspicious or ominous about them not being present? But I would like to read them.

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

I would also like to point out that the operator patched the line and link to the telephone inside whf to Essex police control room, who in turn relayed the link to firearms officers at the scene, and that references to a dog barking inside the house by officers at the scene whilst making challenges to the occupants of the farmhouse at about 5:25am, and onwards, would almost certainly have been heard via the link up provided by the operator to the police.

(1) phone at scene in kitchen off its cradle, providing an open line which operator patched up to police control, who in turn relayed it to officers at the scene...

(2) Dog inside farmhouse barking, noise picked up via telephone eavesdrop and relayed to police control, as above...

(3) no evidence that any police officer who was positioned at any part of the building during the siege, heard a dog barking from either in the kitchen, or a bedroom, or any other part of the farmhouse. Therefore, once firearms officers arrived, any mention of a dog barking would almost certainly have been as a result of the telephone eavesdrop that the operator patched through to the officers at the scene...

I know this might be going off the topic of the thread here, but do you not find it strange that the operator was able to patch into the open line? The phone in the kitchen was photographed off its cradle.  The line has been stated as "open". Now it is a fact that the person who initiates a call must be the one to terminate it. So what was the last call made from WHF? If it was to JB why did he describe the line as going dead. This could only happen if the handset was returned to the cradle at WHF or NB depressed the buttons in the cradle. Does that fit with JB's description of his fathers phone call. I thought that JB said the line "went dead". That cannot be possible if the operator was able to "evesdrop" the line. For that to be possible a call had to be made from WHF which was not terminated from within WHF, either by hanging up or depressing the buttons on the cradle. If anybody thinks that his reasoning is flawed please comment because this is causing me great trouble in believing JB's version of events.

[vidvic]

Absolutely spot on Janet.

[ngb1066]

I know this might be going off the topic of the thread here, but do you not find it strange that the operator was able to patch into the open line? The phone in the kitchen was photographed off its cradle.  The line has been stated as "open". Now it is a fact that the person who initiates a call must be the one to terminate it. So what was the last call made from WHF? If it was to JB why did he describe the line as going dead. This could only happen if the handset was returned to the cradle at WHF or NB depressed the buttons in the cradle. Does that fit with JB's description of his fathers phone call. I thought that JB said the line "went dead". That cannot be possible if the operator was able to "evesdrop" the line. For that to be possible a call had to be made from WHF which was not terminated from within WHF, either by hanging up or depressing the buttons on the cradle. If anybody thinks that his reasoning is flawed please comment because this is causing me great trouble in believing JB's version of events.

The buttons in the handset could have been depressed, thus cutting off the call, without the handset being replaced.  The handset was then dropped, leaving the line open.

 

[grahameb]

The buttons in the handset could have been depressed, thus cutting off the call, without the handset being replaced.  The handset was then dropped, leaving the line open.

If you tap the button on the receiver quickly this could happen. Whilst it cuts off the recipient it creates an open line.

[mike tesko]

The buttons in the handset could have been depressed, thus cutting off the call, without the handset being replaced.  The handset was then dropped, leaving the line open.

Sometimes, the plunger can stick down, and temporarily or permanently create a state of affairs which is/was akin to the line appearing to go dead. From what i have been told this was a common fault with that type of round finger dial telephones in that era...

[mike tesko]

Something else worth taking into account, is that before photographs were taken in the kitchen, DCI Harris used the kitchen phone to make contact with ACC Peter Simpson at about 8:15am, which lasted about 15 minutes, until around 8:30am. How do we know that the phone in the crime scene pictures, was the one in use in the kitchen before DCI Harris made use of it from 8:15am, onwards?