The Role of DCI "Terry" Gibbons, at the scene - 7th August 1985...

[mike tesko]

One of the difficulties with this case, is that EP gathered all the evidence they needed to prove Sheila was guilty and responsible which they collected up as part of file SC/688/85. However, on 6th September 1985, the nature of the investigation changed, and the police created a new file, SC/786/85, into which they only put information and evidence that might suggest that Sheila was killed along with the other four victims, by Jeremy. Everything and anything which was part of the original file (SC/688/85) which remotely suggested that Sheila was guilty, was edited out of statements, and reports, before it became part of the new file (SC/786/85) - the original material in the format of the original file (SC/688/85) being withheld under pii rules...

Is it fair that although EP gathered all this evidence in the original file (SC/688/85) to prove that Sheila was guilty and that she did do it, is being withheld under pii rules?

Silly question, how come (SC/688/85) is withheld under pii rules, but you often use evidence from this?

.......................

Because parts of the original file (SC/688/85) were carried over into the new file (SC/786/85)...

So there was a statement from a courier and a southern electric meter reader carried over?

-----------------------

Carried over as part of the non disclosed material, yes...

[mike tesko]

Sceptre 100 phone in upstairs office, was used in the running of the family business, N & J Bamber Ltd - but Ralph made call to Jeremy, or at least the last call made from that phone was made to the cottage where Jeremy lived, during the early hours of the morning...

This is what made police suspect that Jeremy could have made a call to his own cottage and used his answer phone - hence the reason why they seized it?

[tonyb]

talk about... painting yourself... into a corner... .surely you should contact BT and obtain Proof (yes that word that seems so lacking on the forum...) that will support your arguement that local calls were itemised when you say. it seems an easy way to put this to bed... or am i missing somthing?

[tonyb]

Sorry  above to smiffy

[smiffy]

good word that tonyb...BUT IT WAS THE PROSECUTIONS CASE TO UNDERMINE JB's defence which included the call from Ralph.
The prosecution DID NOT PROVE that call was not made....the onus was on them ..not for JB to prove it did happen.

[mike tesko]

good word that tonyb...BUT IT WAS THE PROSECUTIONS CASE TO UNDERMINE JB's defence which included the call from Ralph.
The prosecution DID NOT PROVE that call was not made....the onus was on them ..not for JB to prove it did happen.

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Call to JB from Ralph did occur, I am absolutely positive about that - or at least a call was made from whf to JB's cottage by use of the sceptre 100 phone in the upstairs office...

[mike tesko]

DCI 'Terry' Gibbons, was responsible for passing on information about two bodies found once police got into whf

Why would one of the most experienced senior detectives in Essex police, relay a message from the scene about the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female being found upon entry, if it was not true? Not only that, but which other police officer at the scene, told DCI Gibbons that this was true? This information must have been relayed from one police officer to another, once the raid team had got into the farmhouse, not beforehand...

It seems to me, that this other police officer must have been one of the members of the raid team, once they entered the kitchen, yet according to their official version of events, no such information was ever relayed to senior police officers outside in the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding?

So why would DCI "Terry" Gibbons, make such a thing up?

Did he make it up?

"No"...

The contents of his witness statement bear witness to what he was told by another police officer who must have been amongst those who set foot into the farmhouse, and he did pass a message to the incident room, requesting that all the different parties be contacted, and this is backed up by a separate log, a copy of which is attached...

It is now necessary to identify everyone involved in this process, from identifying the police officer inside the farmhouse who relayed this information to DCI Gibbons, and who received this information from DCI Gibbons, and who this person then contacted, and what they were all told at the varying events?

All of this has got nothing whatsoever to do with PC Collins mistakenly identifying Ralph Bambers body for that of a dead female -PC Collins explanation about this is nothing but a red herring...

[smiffy]

found on entry to premises

quite clear what that means.

[mike tesko]

found on entry to premises

quite clear what that means.

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Lets put things into perspective - when SOC were contacted in accordance with what DCI "Terry" Gibbons instructed, the control room contacted DS Davidson at his home and told him that police were dealing with an incident at whf, involving - A MURDER, and A SUICIDE, now the situation cannot be any clearer than it is being put, and that is that the police discovered two bodies upon entry to the farmhouse, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, and one was described as a murder, whilst the other was described as a suicide, and that all this information, was passed from someone inside the farmhouse, to DCI "Terry" Gibbons who was with other senior police officers in the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding at the scene, who in turn passed a radio message to the incident room, for various people to be contacted regarding two bodies, which resulted in someone in the incident room / control room, contacting these persons individually and mentioned in one form or another that they were required to attend the scene in connection with two bodies, or and a murder and a suicide, and that all these communications took place between 7.30am and 7:45am...

Let us also not forget...

That only three further bodies were found upstairs by 8:10am, according to the contents of the police radio message logs from the scene?

Also, there is a copy of the message that covers the request for the police surgeon to be contacted relating to two bodies, from a very early stage, all features which support what DCI "Terry" Gibbons says in his statement - that he was the police officer who passed on those requests from the scene, for all these persons to be contacted after 7:35am:-

[tonyb]

Thanks for the kind words...But SMIFFY... make the call,find the proof YOU NEED... and you will PROVE all those that doubt your words as idiot's... makes sense to me,does it not to you...?

[mike tesko]

There is clearly a time line here, which is of interest :-


(1)Senior officers, including DCI "Terry" Gibbons, are gathered together in forward control point

(2) raid team go to enter farmhouse at about 7:30am

(3) message is passed by a member of the raid team that two bodies have been found upon entry, one dead male, one dead female, one a murder the other a suicide

(4) DCI Gibbons contacts the incident room and updates them about find of two bodies, including information about one of the bodies being a dead male, and the other being a dead female, and that one is a murder and the other is a suicide - 7:35am

(5) SOC (DS Davidson) contacted and told to attend office because police at whf are dealing with a murder and a suicide - 7:45am

(6) Police surgeon contacted and requested to attend whf, in connection with two bodies - 7:48am

(7) a further three bodies found upstairs - 8:10am

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Now, it cannot be any clearer that this, they did find two bodies upon entry into whf, one was a dead male, and the other was a dead female, one was described as a murder whilst the other was being treated at that stage as a suicide, and that this was the state of play as soon as police got into the farmhouse, and before 8:10am...

There must have been other senior officers with DCI Gibbons, in the forward control point, when he received this information - (1) DCI Harris, (2) PI Montgomery, (3) DCI Clarke...

In addition, all the members of the raid team who went into the farmhouse at just after 7:30am, must also know the truth about the finding of two bodies upon entry - the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder and a suicide, According to the evidence, there were six members of the raid team who went to enter the farmhouse at about 7:30am, so all of them must know the truth and must have witnessed the message that was relayed to the forward control point and to DCI Gibbons before 7:35am...

This is what the police and the other agencies of the state have covered up...

[mike tesko]

If DCI "Terry" Gibbons is still alive, he should be made to account for this feature of the operation at the scene, about the two bodies being found upon entry, and one being a murder and the other a suicide, and be made to tell who he got his information from, and to whom he actually spoke to at the incident room?

[paulg]

One of the difficulties with this case, is that EP gathered all the evidence they needed to prove Sheila was guilty and responsible which they collected up as part of file SC/688/85. However, on 6th September 1985, the nature of the investigation changed, and the police created a new file, SC/786/85, into which they only put information and evidence that might suggest that Sheila was killed along with the other four victims, by Jeremy. Everything and anything which was part of the original file (SC/688/85) which remotely suggested that Sheila was guilty, was edited out of statements, and reports, before it became part of the new file (SC/786/85) - the original material in the format of the original file (SC/688/85) being withheld under pii rules...

Is it fair that although EP gathered all this evidence in the original file (SC/688/85) to prove that Sheila was guilty and that she did do it, is being withheld under pii rules?

Silly question, how come (SC/688/85) is withheld under pii rules, but you often use evidence from this?

.......................

Because parts of the original file (SC/688/85) were carried over into the new file (SC/786/85)...

So there was a statement from a courier and a southern electric meter reader carried over?

-----------------------

Carried over as part of the non disclosed material, yes...

Have you got these statements, i'd like to see them.

I didn't like the courier saying "ran off in general direction of WHF", when its over a mile away, and the southern electric official should have been eastern electric.

[paulg]

how can simong prove he did contact them...or is that just a  false claim?

you dont know what the exchange was for that area and how it costed peoples calls at all do you paulg?....as it varied from area to area?
system x was being put into exchanges and had been for a few years and was for a few years to come etc..

check your telecoms acts and reports etc about things like how they charged for bills ...ie durations and distances and different ways they were recorded dependent on the type of exchange in use.
They had to be able to  establish on firm grounds about how much the bill was and how it was calculated.
They had the capablity in 1983 to list local calls in the trials then..but chose not to add them to the itemised bills they produced for practical and economic reasons.

Think this thread should go back on subject ..rather that let it get distracted by the time wasters diversions.

Look, contact them, others have, and they will tell you they did not have the technology in place to give an itemised local call bill for WHF. Its as simple as that, unless BT are part of a conspiracy...

[mike tesko]

One of the difficulties with this case, is that EP gathered all the evidence they needed to prove Sheila was guilty and responsible which they collected up as part of file SC/688/85. However, on 6th September 1985, the nature of the investigation changed, and the police created a new file, SC/786/85, into which they only put information and evidence that might suggest that Sheila was killed along with the other four victims, by Jeremy. Everything and anything which was part of the original file (SC/688/85) which remotely suggested that Sheila was guilty, was edited out of statements, and reports, before it became part of the new file (SC/786/85) - the original material in the format of the original file (SC/688/85) being withheld under pii rules...

Is it fair that although EP gathered all this evidence in the original file (SC/688/85) to prove that Sheila was guilty and that she did do it, is being withheld under pii rules?

Silly question, how come (SC/688/85) is withheld under pii rules, but you often use evidence from this?

.......................

Because parts of the original file (SC/688/85) were carried over into the new file (SC/786/85)...

So there was a statement from a courier and a southern electric meter reader carried over?

-----------------------

Carried over as part of the non disclosed material, yes...

Have you got these statements, i'd like to see them.

I didn't like the courier saying "ran off in general direction of WHF", when its over a mile away, and the southern electric official should have been eastern electric.

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Ewen Smith who was Jeremy's solicitor in 2003, has got copies of them - he even went to interview these witnesses and took new statements before Jeremy disposed of his services...