Bullet entries are more consistent with Sheila being shot on two occasions...

[nugnug]

i cant someone  shooting themselves the wondering to another part of the house to shoot themselves agian.

[smiffy]

Hi Smiffy, I thought you believed that Sheila shot herself in the kitchen and then went upstairs - if that is true then 1 shot clearly did not kill her, the silencer was probably planted later by the family and he enters thanks to inside help from JB.....

careful...
lets clarify....
My views on who first shot Sheila are either (a) She initially shot herself ...which is possible but less likely in my view ...or (b) that Sheila was shot by a police officer.
In my view this event whichever way round it was, is that it occurred in the kitchen.

[mike tesko]

Police sent a memo to the ballistic expert (Malcolm Fletcher) about one of the silencers, which was damaging bullets fired through it - DI Cook wanted to know if the silencer in question could have become warped as a result of it receiving a hard knock?

Bullet PV/20 was fired through this silencer (SBJ/1), at a time when it was fitted to the barrel of a gun, and Sheila was wounded non fatally in/to the right side of the neck...

Bullet PV/20 fragmented and lost velocity inside the damaged silencer (SBJ/1) before exiting, thereafter entering the victims neck at a reduced velocity, the individual pieces of fragmented bullet dispersing in the tissue of the neck, wIth absolutely no damage at all to vertebrae...

[mike tesko]

Bullet PV/19, was not subject to the same dynamic principles, as those exerted on bullet PV/20 - establishing that damaged silencer (SBJ/1) was fitted to barrel of gun when PV/20 was fired but not when PV/19 was fired...

[mike tesko]

Warped silencer (SBJ/1) which was damaging bullets fired through it, and significantly reducing the velocity of such bullets, was not either of the silencers, DB/1 or DRB/1...

No scientific evidence exists to show that either silencer, DB/1 or DRB/1, was checked to see if it was warped, or if they were damaging bullets fired through them - however, silencer (SBJ/1) used in unofficial test firings prior to 20th September 1985, was damaging control ammunition fired through it...

[Hartley]

Unfortunately Mike, and true to normal service, your interpretation of what is evidence and what such evidence indicates, differs quite considerably from my own.

You may well have such a memo, and it may well produce the effects which you describe, however it certainly does not amount to actual evidence indicating your suggestions, it is in fact nothing more than a theory.

As I've previously mentioned there are a number of other bullets, which are associated with victims other than Sheila, which were described as being in various states, whole, badly damaged and fragmented. Your application of this particular theory to bullet PV/19 PV/20 alone, is woefully short of the mark.

In my humble opinion only of course.

EDIT: Corrected exhibit reference. 

[mike tesko]

i cant someone  shooting themselves the wondering to another part of the house to shoot themselves agian.

Ask the police how they could find two bodies in the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female upon entry to the kitchen, a murder and a suicide, and by 8.10am they only discover three other bodies upstairs?

Then get back to me, please...

[Hartley]

i cant someone  shooting themselves the wondering to another part of the house to shoot themselves agian.

Ask the police how they could find two bodies in the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female upon entry to the kitchen, a murder and a suicide, and by 8.10am they only discover three other bodies upstairs?

Then get back to me, please...

I've already explained an alternative possibility very clearly (as copied below).

I don't know what you mean by official general radio logs. There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.

The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".

... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................

Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

... .......................................................
MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).

In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................

 

With regards to murder/suicide, at that stage it would have been impossible to ascertain, the use of either description was incorrect.
And if we want to be that pedantic about the words, let's have a closer look at Davidson's take on the matter.

The images below are from Davidsons COLP interview: (Blue lines are mine, indicating the relevant section)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,590.msg12022.html#msg12022

Look at the wording: He was informed something along the lines of a suicide and a murder, and this gave him the impression that it was one or two bodies.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but if you want to take the 'murder and suicide' words and put your weight behind them then I can only suggest that you should also take the 'one or two bodies' along with it.

There is however a discrepancy in times (of sorts) within that interview in the sense that it states that Davidson was called at 7:30am, however the I/R logs indicate he was called at 7:45.

In any event, I'd suggest that any notion of murder or suicide stemmed completely from Jeremy's description of what had so far occurred, including Sheila going berserk with a gun and the description of her illness, and that the police had been loud hailing the house for over two hours without response, followed by the discovery of Ralph's body.

But we've already had this discussion many times before.

[smiffy]

i cant someone  shooting themselves the wondering to another part of the house to shoot themselves agian.

Ask the police how they could find two bodies in the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female upon entry to the kitchen, a murder and a suicide, and by 8.10am they only discover three other bodies upstairs?

Then get back to me, please...

I've already explained an alternative possibility very clearly (as copied below).

I don't know what you mean by official general radio logs. There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.

The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".

... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................

Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

... .......................................................
MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).

In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................

 

With regards to murder/suicide, at that stage it would have been impossible to ascertain, the use of either description was incorrect.
And if we want to be that pedantic about the words, let's have a closer look at Davidson's take on the matter.

The images below are from Davidsons COLP interview: (Blue lines are mine, indicating the relevant section)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,590.msg12022.html#msg12022

Look at the wording: He was informed something along the lines of a suicide and a murder, and this gave him the impression that it was one or two bodies.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but if you want to take the 'murder and suicide' words and put your weight behind them then I can only suggest that you should also take the 'one or two bodies' along with it.

There is however a discrepancy in times (of sorts) within that interview in the sense that it states that Davidson was called at 7:30am, however the I/R logs indicate he was called at 7:45.

In any event, I'd suggest that any notion of murder or suicide stemmed completely from Jeremy's description of what had so far occurred, including Sheila going berserk with a gun and the description of her illness, and that the police had been loud hailing the house for over two hours without response, followed by the discovery of Ralph's body.

But we've already had this discussion many times before.

So because Davidson gives a completely moronic answer in his COLP interview your satisfied "steve the newbie stirring up trouble person" or is it Hartley.
A "murder and  a suicide" being reported is clearly referring to 2 bodies and cannot reasonably be anything else. Davidson was clearly struggling to answer truthfully so came out with some  nonsense.


1+1= 2