8th Bullet not recovered from Ralph Bamber, during autopsy, sensation...

[Roch]

Fascinating reading.  Painfully grim when reading about RB's initial facial injuries and how they may have affected him.  I know it's going off topic but PV trashes the opinion that SC had got up and moved between her two shots.

It is grim. When talking about all the ballistics, police logs, and other evidence it's easy to overlook how absolutely vicious this crime was. One can only guess as to what Nevill was doing in the kitchen or if he tried to save his family but the poor man was shot in the face, beaten, and shot all over again. I dread to think how he must he felt knowing that one of his family members was doing this to him.

The horrors that went on in that house that night, it is frightening to imagine.  Adrenalin pumping, fight or flight.  And nobody really knows how long it went on for.  There may have been tense gaps in between some of the shootings, like a deadly game of hide & seek. Or it may not have taken long at all to unfold.  The scenario of crazed SC wondering around a house full of slain family members in the early hours, is very eerie.  For JB to have carried out the killings the ruthlessness involved is difficult to comprehend.

[Kaldin]

Fascinating reading.  Painfully grim when reading about RB's initial facial injuries and how they may have affected him.  I know it's going off topic but PV trashes the opinion that SC had got up and moved between her two shots.

It is grim. When talking about all the ballistics, police logs, and other evidence it's easy to overlook how absolutely vicious this crime was. One can only guess as to what Nevill was doing in the kitchen or if he tried to save his family but the poor man was shot in the face, beaten, and shot all over again. I dread to think how he must he felt knowing that one of his family members was doing this to him.

The horrors that went on in that house that night, it is frightening to imagine.  Adrenalin pumping, fight or flight.  And nobody really knows how long it went on for.  There may have been tense gaps in between some of the shootings, like a deadly game of hide & seek. Or it may not have taken long at all to unfold.  The scenario of crazed SC wondering around a house full of slain family members in the early hours, is very eerie.  For JB to have carried out the killings the ruthlessness involved is difficult to comprehend.

Absolutely. This wasn't a crime where the victims didn't know much about what was happening. The boys didn't, but the adults certainly did. June may have been asleep at the time, but she must have known that she'd been injured and perhaps didn't know how or why. The poor woman got up from the bed and either walked or crawled around in a terrible state. If she was conscious when her killer came back it's dreadful to think that she saw them pointing that gun at her and knew they were about to pull the trigger again.

[tut tut]

Fascinating reading.  Painfully grim when reading about RB's initial facial injuries and how they may have affected him.  I know it's going off topic but PV trashes the opinion that SC had got up and moved between her two shots.

It is grim. When talking about all the ballistics, police logs, and other evidence it's easy to overlook how absolutely vicious this crime was. One can only guess as to what Nevill was doing in the kitchen or if he tried to save his family but the poor man was shot in the face, beaten, and shot all over again. I dread to think how he must he felt knowing that one of his family members was doing this to him.

The horrors that went on in that house that night, it is frightening to imagine.  Adrenalin pumping, fight or flight.  And nobody really knows how long it went on for.  There may have been tense gaps in between some of the shootings, like a deadly game of hide & seek. Or it may not have taken long at all to unfold.  The scenario of crazed SC wondering around a house full of slain family members in the early hours, is very eerie.  For JB to have carried out the killings the ruthlessness involved is difficult to comprehend.

Absolutely. This wasn't a crime where the victims didn't know much about what was happening. The boys didn't, but the adults certainly did. June may have been asleep at the time, but she must have known that she'd been injured and perhaps didn't know how or why. The poor woman got up from the bed and either walked or crawled around in a terrible state. If she was conscious when her killer came back it's dreadful to think that she saw them pointing that gun at her and knew they were about to pull the trigger again.

Also i find it hard for SC to be a crack shot with all the bullets in her state don't you, especially to over power the father, i think Bamber made it look too obvious as a suicide, especially with the Bible and leaving the gun fully loaded just waiting for her to pick it up.

[Kaldin]

Also i find it hard for SC to be a crack shot with all the bullets in her state don't you, especially to over power the father, i think Bamber made it look too obvious as a suicide, especially with the Bible and leaving the gun fully loaded just waiting for her to pick it up.

It's all very hard to imagine tut tut. Even the pathologist, Peter Vanezis, who is a man of science, remarked that Jeremy would have to be a nutter to do that and set it up to look like Sheila did it. That's where the difficulty for me lies. It's extremely hard to imagine someone being sane but so depraved that he could shoot his family in that manner, some of them face to face - the people who brought him up and who may have been begging him to stop. It's also hard to imagine anyone being so depraved as to shoot two small boys in their beds - little boys who had probably been laughing and playing on the farm the previous day.

[Roch]

Also i find it hard for SC to be a crack shot with all the bullets in her state don't you, especially to over power the father, i think Bamber made it look too obvious as a suicide, especially with the Bible and leaving the gun fully loaded just waiting for her to pick it up.

It's all very hard to imagine tut tut. Even the pathologist, Peter Vanezis, who is a man of science, remarked that Jeremy would have to be a nutter to do that and set it up to look like Sheila did it. That's where the difficulty for me lies. It's extremely hard to imagine someone being sane but so depraved that he could shoot his family in that manner, some of them face to face - the people who brought him up and who may have been begging him to stop. It's also hard to imagine anyone being so depraved as to shoot two small boys in their beds - little boys who had probably been laughing and playing on the farm the previous day.

I'm leaning toward halperidol camp... so far anyway...

[Roch]

kaldin / Mike T or anyone really... What do you make of PV's statement about the two shots to SC being fired in close succession and discounting the theory of SC having got up and moved about between the two shots?   Perhaps this has already been asked about and debated elswhere on the forum.  I'm trying to tie it in with the scribbled out log "+ 1 female"  plus the 'further three bodies found upstairs' etc.   

[Kaldin]

kaldin / Mike T or anyone really... What do you make of PV's statement about the two shots to SC being fired in close succession and discounting the theory of SC having got up and moved about between the two shots?   Perhaps this has already been asked about and debated elswhere on the forum.  I'm trying to tie it in with the scribbled out log "+ 1 female"  plus the 'further three bodies found upstairs' etc.

I think Venezis' statement has some credibility.

It's very difficult to see where the blood on the nightdress came from - the first or second wound, but I think it's probably from the first one. I think she was sitting up or even standing up before the first shot and that's why the blood went down the right side of her nightdress. That blood couldn't have got there whilst she was lying down in my opinion because it would have had to go uphill.

Then she fell back or lay back and the blood went sideways to the right of her neck. The blood from the second wound also went sideways to the right of her neck, and that's why I think she probably didn't move significantly between the two shots. By "significantly" I mean got up and walked around or went upstairs.

On the other hand, I don't think she was in the exact position depicted in the photos when the second shot happened - her head is at the wrong angle for that.

I'm quite prepared to discuss an alternative view - ie, a scenario where she walked around or went upstairs between the two shots.

[Roch]

kaldin / Mike T or anyone really... What do you make of PV's statement about the two shots to SC being fired in close succession and discounting the theory of SC having got up and moved about between the two shots?   Perhaps this has already been asked about and debated elswhere on the forum.  I'm trying to tie it in with the scribbled out log "+ 1 female"  plus the 'further three bodies found upstairs' etc.

I think Venezis' statement has some credibility.

It's very difficult to see where the blood on the nightdress came from - the first or second wound, but I think it's probably from the first one. I think she was sitting up or even standing up before the first shot and that's why the blood went down the right side of her nightdress. That blood couldn't have got there whilst she was lying down in my opinion because it would have had to go uphill.

Then she fell back or lay back and the blood went sideways to the right of her neck. The blood from the second wound also went sideways to the right of her neck, and that's why I think she probably didn't move significantly between the two shots. By "significantly" I mean got up and walked around or went upstairs.

On the other hand, I don't think she was in the exact position depicted in the photos when the second shot happened - her head is at the wrong angle for that.

I'm quite prepared to discuss an alternative view - ie, a scenario where she walked around or went upstairs between the two shots.

Ok thanks.  I might get shot down for this:  In any scenario of her having been found upon entry as per some logs / messages may imply, would there be any credibility in her having 'played dead'?  I'm not sure how thorough TFU would initially check whether a person was still alive or not.  You would like to think that a person playing dead would be sussed as exactly that.  Uninjured by the first shot (which has not yet took place) Sheila could have got upstairs to later fire both shots in relative succession as PV suggests.  Obviously this scenario also allows for the 'ensuing panic' scenario speculated by Mike T... 'Find Sheila!' etc.

[Kaldin]

kaldin / Mike T or anyone really... What do you make of PV's statement about the two shots to SC being fired in close succession and discounting the theory of SC having got up and moved about between the two shots?   Perhaps this has already been asked about and debated elswhere on the forum.  I'm trying to tie it in with the scribbled out log "+ 1 female"  plus the 'further three bodies found upstairs' etc.

I think Venezis' statement has some credibility.

It's very difficult to see where the blood on the nightdress came from - the first or second wound, but I think it's probably from the first one. I think she was sitting up or even standing up before the first shot and that's why the blood went down the right side of her nightdress. That blood couldn't have got there whilst she was lying down in my opinion because it would have had to go uphill.

Then she fell back or lay back and the blood went sideways to the right of her neck. The blood from the second wound also went sideways to the right of her neck, and that's why I think she probably didn't move significantly between the two shots. By "significantly" I mean got up and walked around or went upstairs.

On the other hand, I don't think she was in the exact position depicted in the photos when the second shot happened - her head is at the wrong angle for that.

I'm quite prepared to discuss an alternative view - ie, a scenario where she walked around or went upstairs between the two shots.

Ok thanks.  I might get shot down for this:  In any scenario of her having been found upon entry as per some logs / messages may imply, would there be any credibility in her having 'played dead'?  I'm not sure how thorough TFU would initially check whether a person was still alive or not.  You would like to think that a person playing dead would be sussed as exactly that.  Uninjured by the first shot (which has not yet took place) Sheila could have got upstairs to later fire both shots in relative succession as PV suggests.  Obviously this scenario also allows for the 'ensuing panic' scenario speculated by Mike T... 'Find Sheila!' etc.

It's possible I guess. I'm not sure why she would want to play dead in the kitchen though. It's not as if she would only just have killed Nevill, so I can't see why she would he hanging around in the kitchen to start with. She would also have heard the police discussing how to get in, and then trying to break down the door so she had time to go upstairs before they got in.

If she was just pretending to be dead, surely the firearms team would notice that she didn't appear to have been shot so they would check to see if she was alive.

[Roch]

kaldin / Mike T or anyone really... What do you make of PV's statement about the two shots to SC being fired in close succession and discounting the theory of SC having got up and moved about between the two shots?   Perhaps this has already been asked about and debated elswhere on the forum.  I'm trying to tie it in with the scribbled out log "+ 1 female"  plus the 'further three bodies found upstairs' etc.

I think Venezis' statement has some credibility.

It's very difficult to see where the blood on the nightdress came from - the first or second wound, but I think it's probably from the first one. I think she was sitting up or even standing up before the first shot and that's why the blood went down the right side of her nightdress. That blood couldn't have got there whilst she was lying down in my opinion because it would have had to go uphill.

Then she fell back or lay back and the blood went sideways to the right of her neck. The blood from the second wound also went sideways to the right of her neck, and that's why I think she probably didn't move significantly between the two shots. By "significantly" I mean got up and walked around or went upstairs.

On the other hand, I don't think she was in the exact position depicted in the photos when the second shot happened - her head is at the wrong angle for that.

I'm quite prepared to discuss an alternative view - ie, a scenario where she walked around or went upstairs between the two shots.

Ok thanks.  I might get shot down for this:  In any scenario of her having been found upon entry as per some logs / messages may imply, would there be any credibility in her having 'played dead'?  I'm not sure how thorough TFU would initially check whether a person was still alive or not.  You would like to think that a person playing dead would be sussed as exactly that.  Uninjured by the first shot (which has not yet took place) Sheila could have got upstairs to later fire both shots in relative succession as PV suggests.  Obviously this scenario also allows for the 'ensuing panic' scenario speculated by Mike T... 'Find Sheila!' etc.

It's possible I guess. I'm not sure why she would want to play dead in the kitchen though. It's not as if she would only just have killed Nevill, so I can't see why she would he hanging around in the kitchen to start with. She would also have heard the police discussing how to get in, and then trying to break down the door so she had time to go upstairs before they got in.

If she was just pretending to be dead, surely the firearms team would notice that she didn't appear to have been shot so they would check to see if she was alive.

I may have just been riddled with bullets my self there    But wait.... unconcious... rather than playing dead? Not that i am aware of any injuries to her that would have rendered her unconcious... blackout? (mental / physical exhaustion from events)

[paulg]

This is the thread Hartley.

[Hartley]

This is the thread Hartley.

Cheers mate. 

[Hartley]

This report also has no mention of any wounds or scratches to Sheila's wrist/arm and it says that the wounds to Ralph's right arm were caused by multiple blows of a rounded linear object (not gouge marks or fingernail scratches).

So much for the suggestion by Mike T that Sheila and Ralph fought and the injuries to their arms proves it.

[paulg]

And there's a contradiction as you've noted with the neck bullet to Sheila. It says whole, then later described as fragmented after hitting bone.

Also on Ralphs injuries. It appears the struggle was after being shot in the side and arm, as the right arm is the one that suffers blows, so would suggest he was unable to use his left arm to defend himself?