why dident the boys wake up

[grahameb]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?

Do you expect him to come forward, Grahame?

If he's a nice chap yes.

[Alias]

There is no hitman.

[bob]

There is no hitman.

So Jeremy did it himself Abs, after all? 

[Alias]

There is no hitman.

So Jeremy did it himself Abs, after all? 

There are other possibilities...

[Newbury1]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi Grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

I wonder why the hitman hasn't ever been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?

Grahame, as previously stated, in my theoretical scenario I did not suggest a professional hit man, but possibly an easily led accomplice working with JB on the promise that he will get some serious money when JB inherits. JB probably had a few very dodgy friends from his cannabis dealing that may have been prepared to go along with his plan.

Was JB particularly charismatic and convincing enough to get another in on his plan - maybe?

The term "hitman" that you keep using clearly has professional implications and a hitman (IMO) would want to work alone - and I do not fully support a hitman working alone.

The Accomplice is clearly not going to come forward to implicate himself, and why would he want to secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever? JB' conviction and appeals do not effect the accomplice at all. Unfortunately for the accomplice, he has to do with no payment as the plan (after a month of it going well) eventually failed - Just a thought.

The reason I am promoting this scenario comes about from others posts involving the Brno rifle (or the unique weapon handed in shortly after the murders).

I cannot see SC using two rifles to kill everyone esp. as one was a bolt action rifle, which is even more difficult to use than the semi auto 

[curiousessex]

Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.

Hi Grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!

And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually 

I wonder why the hitman hasn't ever been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?

Grahame, as previously stated, in my theoretical scenario I did not suggest a professional hit man, but possibly an easily led accomplice working with JB on the promise that he will get some serious money when JB inherits. JB probably had a few very dodgy friends from his cannabis dealing that may have been prepared to go along with his plan.

Was JB particularly charismatic and convincing enough to get another in on his plan - maybe?

The term "hitman" that you keep using clearly has profession implications and a hitman (IMO) would want to work alone - and I do not fully support a hitman working alone.

The Accomplice is clearly not going to come forward to implicate himself, and why would he want to secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever? JB' conviction and appeals do not effect the accomplice at all. Unfortunately for the accomplice, he has to do with no payment as the plan (after a month of it going well) eventually failed - Just a thought.

The reason I am promoting this scenario comes about from others posts involving the Brno rifle (or the unique weapon handed in shortly after the murders).

I cannot see SC using two rifles to kill everyone esp. as one was a bolt action rifle, which is even more difficult to use than the semi auto 

Could the accomplice have been SC?

[nugnug]

what jb and sc did it together possible but sounds a bit far fetched.

[Steve A]

Bit far fetched I think.

[smiffy]

erm someone put bullets in their brain...just the same as with Nevill and June.
in every victim the killer knew to put a bullet in the brain.

so for the final "suicide" shot Sheila (going by the knowledge of a bullet in the brain) should have no doubts about where to aim to kill herself. A bullet in the brain..either aiming it at her brain through her head..such as an underchin shot.  Now such a shot would have been so simple to carry out lying down or staning up...no awkward rifle position.  So why did she not do this with one shot?

The neck shot clearly was not going into the brain so it seems to indicate strongly that she did not fire that shot and it may have been fired by someone else.

So going by this if it was someone else that killed the other 4 and knew to put a bullet in the brain why screw up and put a bullet in the neck to fake suicide...it makes no sense. It does not suggest a compliant Sheila either as a compliant Sheila would have allowed a bullet to the brain. No real signs of a struggle either so thats no explanation.

so overall the neck shot seems all wrong with either Sheila as the killer of the other 4 or for one person killing all 5 so that leaves us with one sensible option...that Sheila killed the other 4 and someone else shot her in the neck...the bullet that HAD to be swapped.

in the x ray photograph...who says the fragmented bullet is actually a .22 bullet...it may well be a larger calibre bullet fired from a weapon that was not a .22 rifle.

[Newbury1]

This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.

If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.

However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.

In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."

I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites  )

In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)

JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.

They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and  opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.

Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.

Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .

The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.

All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.

JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.

Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.

EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.

As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)

This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go 

I have my hands up so don't shoot 

Hi Shona, I know I am resurrecting an old post here, and smiffy and Grahame have given me the courtesy of a reply, but I would like to know what your take is on my hypothetical scenario and what would you amend to make it fit in with your thinking 

[shonapugs]

Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.

[Newbury1]

Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.

No problem 

[ngb1066]

Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.

Shona  -  could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it?  I would be interested and I am sure others would too.

[vidvic]

Trouble is Neil, anything we post is met with a good old 'slagging' from the head of JB's media dept.

[ngb1066]

Trouble is Neil, anything we post is met with a good old 'slagging' from the head of JB's media dept.

Mike Tesko has made it clear that although this forum is essentially pro Bamber and created so that Mike could raise public awareness of the issues in the case, he welcomes contributions from anyone who is interested.  Mike has not censored posts even when they have included attacks on him.  Mike takes the view that debate about the case is helpful and that arguments presented by those who believe JB is guilty are beneficial to the forum, as if everyone agrees there is very little to debate.  I agree with Mike's approach and on that basis accepted his invitation to help in moderating the forum.   We have seen some excellent debate here in the past and I would really like to see that again.

I urge everyone to post their views on the case openly, whatever their viewpoint.  Those who disagree can then attack the argument, not the person.  I will do my best to facilitate free and open debate and to curb personal attacks.  A good starting point would be if we could all draw a line under the personal exchanges of the last 24 hours.