An acid test for forum members

[bob]

That is why I don't have any confidence in any poll whatsoever.

You would have hoped for more than 22 signatures though surely Grahame?

Simply from an interested observer's point of view I was shocked to see such a low number 

[grahameb]

That is why I don't have any confidence in any poll whatsoever.

You would have hoped for more than 22 signatures though surely Grahame?

Simply from an interested observer's point of view I was shocked to see such a low number 

I never go on twitter. Some people do believe in polls. But I don't. Whatever they say they don't excite me enough to take part in them. I have no interest in them whatsoever.

[bob]

That is why I don't have any confidence in any poll whatsoever.

You would have hoped for more than 22 signatures though surely Grahame?

Simply from an interested observer's point of view I was shocked to see such a low number 

I never go on twitter. Some people do believe in polls. But I don't. Whatever they say they don't excite me enough to take part in them. I have no interest in them whatsoever.

There's a difference between a petition and a poll though. If this petition gets 100,000 signatures it goes forward for debate in parliament.

[chochokeira]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Ok Jackie - here's a more scientific snapshot of how many people truly believe in JB's innocence...

You have 1700 followers on your Twitter feed, and use this regularly as evidence of how the momentum is building behind belief in JB's innocence etc.

It is now near the end of "Freedom Fortnight" during which you've all made an extra special push in this regard.

At the beginning of "Freedom Fortnight" one of JB's supporters started an official government petition to have the matter of JB's release debated in parliament.

At the time of posting it has 22 (count them - TWENTY TWO) signatures

That's probably less than the number of regular pro-Bamber posters on this forum alone - so even many of those people are so unconvinced by the argument that they can't be bothered to spend two minutes signing an online petition! And that's before we get into the missing 1700 twitter followers.

I admire your conviction etc. but it really is about time to put this into some kind of perspective, otherwise you're setting yourselves up for a very big disappointment 

And don't say this is a bullying post - you opened this topic by criticising Spark's snapshot of local opinion 

Have you any idea how many petitions are on that site? Thousands of them. I've attempted to get on it several times but it keeps timing out, that's why I've not registered my vote.

[bob]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Ok Jackie - here's a more scientific snapshot of how many people truly believe in JB's innocence...

You have 1700 followers on your Twitter feed, and use this regularly as evidence of how the momentum is building behind belief in JB's innocence etc.

It is now near the end of "Freedom Fortnight" during which you've all made an extra special push in this regard.

At the beginning of "Freedom Fortnight" one of JB's supporters started an official government petition to have the matter of JB's release debated in parliament.

At the time of posting it has 22 (count them - TWENTY TWO) signatures

That's probably less than the number of regular pro-Bamber posters on this forum alone - so even many of those people are so unconvinced by the argument that they can't be bothered to spend two minutes signing an online petition! And that's before we get into the missing 1700 twitter followers.

I admire your conviction etc. but it really is about time to put this into some kind of perspective, otherwise you're setting yourselves up for a very big disappointment 

And don't say this is a bullying post - you opened this topic by criticising Spark's snapshot of local opinion 

Have you any idea how many petitions are on that site? Thousands of them. I've attempted to get on it several times but it keeps timing out, that's why I've not registered my vote.

I have checked it every day for 2 weeks to see how Freedom Fortnight was going, and never once had a problem.

If you type "Jeremy Bamber" into the search box, the first result is the one you want to vote on, so I don't see your argument about number of petitions carries any weight.

[chochokeira]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Ok Jackie - here's a more scientific snapshot of how many people truly believe in JB's innocence...

You have 1700 followers on your Twitter feed, and use this regularly as evidence of how the momentum is building behind belief in JB's innocence etc.

It is now near the end of "Freedom Fortnight" during which you've all made an extra special push in this regard.

At the beginning of "Freedom Fortnight" one of JB's supporters started an official government petition to have the matter of JB's release debated in parliament.

At the time of posting it has 22 (count them - TWENTY TWO) signatures

That's probably less than the number of regular pro-Bamber posters on this forum alone - so even many of those people are so unconvinced by the argument that they can't be bothered to spend two minutes signing an online petition! And that's before we get into the missing 1700 twitter followers.

I admire your conviction etc. but it really is about time to put this into some kind of perspective, otherwise you're setting yourselves up for a very big disappointment 

And don't say this is a bullying post - you opened this topic by criticising Spark's snapshot of local opinion 

Have you any idea how many petitions are on that site? Thousands of them. I've attempted to get on it several times but it keeps timing out, that's why I've not registered my vote.

I have checked it every day for 2 weeks to see how Freedom Fortnight was going, and never once had a problem.

If you type "Jeremy Bamber" into the search box, the first result is the one you want to vote on, so
I don't see your argument about number of petitions carries any weight.

[/b]

"Government's e-petitions website crashes on its first day as debate over ... with the death penalty among the most hotly-contested issues. ..."

"The e-petitions site is having problems at the moment. We need to temporarily suspend the creation and signing of e-petitions to allow us to make sure everything is working properly for you. We aim to re-open the e-petitions site by Friday morning (12th August)."

"e-petitions website crashes again as riots benefit petition nears 100,000"

"Lots of websites are reporting that the ePetition website that the Government setup last week has crashed once again."

"The e-petitions website has been closed to address its technical problems"


Petition to make the e-petition site work properly

This petition is to ask that the people who run the e-petition site get the thing running properly instead of crashing all the time. It would also be useful if the email confirmation of signed petitions actually worked instead of telling you "Whoops! It looks like you tried to access a page that is no longer available, sorry about that. Please click on the button below to go to the home page" or "Sorry if you're experiencing problems accessing e-petitions. There is currently a much higher level of demand than we expected. You could try refreshing your browser (press F5) to complete what you were trying to do We are very sorry, but we were unable to complete your last action. We have been notified about the problem and will resolve it as quickly as possible. Please click on the button below to return to the home page". And this is from HM Govt IT.
Was it ever meant to work properly?

[bob]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Ok Jackie - here's a more scientific snapshot of how many people truly believe in JB's innocence...

You have 1700 followers on your Twitter feed, and use this regularly as evidence of how the momentum is building behind belief in JB's innocence etc.

It is now near the end of "Freedom Fortnight" during which you've all made an extra special push in this regard.

At the beginning of "Freedom Fortnight" one of JB's supporters started an official government petition to have the matter of JB's release debated in parliament.

At the time of posting it has 22 (count them - TWENTY TWO) signatures

That's probably less than the number of regular pro-Bamber posters on this forum alone - so even many of those people are so unconvinced by the argument that they can't be bothered to spend two minutes signing an online petition! And that's before we get into the missing 1700 twitter followers.

I admire your conviction etc. but it really is about time to put this into some kind of perspective, otherwise you're setting yourselves up for a very big disappointment 

And don't say this is a bullying post - you opened this topic by criticising Spark's snapshot of local opinion 

Have you any idea how many petitions are on that site? Thousands of them. I've attempted to get on it several times but it keeps timing out, that's why I've not registered my vote.

I have checked it every day for 2 weeks to see how Freedom Fortnight was going, and never once had a problem.

If you type "Jeremy Bamber" into the search box, the first result is the one you want to vote on, so
I don't see your argument about number of petitions carries any weight.

[/b]

"Government's e-petitions website crashes on its first day as debate over ... with the death penalty among the most hotly-contested issues. ..."

"The e-petitions site is having problems at the moment. We need to temporarily suspend the creation and signing of e-petitions to allow us to make sure everything is working properly for you. We aim to re-open the e-petitions site by Friday morning (12th August)."

"e-petitions website crashes again as riots benefit petition nears 100,000"

"Lots of websites are reporting that the ePetition website that the Government setup last week has crashed once again."

"The e-petitions website has been closed to address its technical problems"


Petition to make the e-petition site work properly

This petition is to ask that the people who run the e-petition site get the thing running properly instead of crashing all the time. It would also be useful if the email confirmation of signed petitions actually worked instead of telling you "Whoops! It looks like you tried to access a page that is no longer available, sorry about that. Please click on the button below to go to the home page" or "Sorry if you're experiencing problems accessing e-petitions. There is currently a much higher level of demand than we expected. You could try refreshing your browser (press F5) to complete what you were trying to do We are very sorry, but we were unable to complete your last action. We have been notified about the problem and will resolve it as quickly as possible. Please click on the button below to return to the home page". And this is from HM Govt IT.
Was it ever meant to work properly?

I now - I've read all that too - of course it crashes when there is a big event, such as a riot, that causes a lot of people to go to it.

It certainy hasn't crashed in the past 10 days though - it seems Freedom Fortnight has not quite raised that level of public interest - as you would know if you had visited the petition as I did.

[bob]

It really does take the biscuit. I've just checked, and the number of signatures is STILL 22 , even though I pointed this out earlier today and several Probies have responded.

What's the problem? Why arent you signing? Are you all scared of adding your real names and addresses to the cause?!

And why isn't it Jackie on here screaming about this instead of me? 

[ngb1066]

It really does take the biscuit. I've just checked, and the number of signatures is STILL 22 , even though I pointed this out earlier today and several Probies have responded.

What's the problem? Why arent you signing? Are you all scared of adding your real names and addresses to the cause?!

And why isn't it Jackie on here screaming about this instead of me? 

Bob  -  In fairness this e-petition is not something that Jeremy Bamber's campaign team have set up and therefore no effort has been made to publicise it.   It is therefore not surprising that it is not generating support in any numbers. I suspect that if the campaign team decided to put their weight behind an e-petition in support of all the withheld evidence being disclosed there would be very strong public support.  That might be something worth considering as many people who do not have a firm view on guilt or innocence as well as some who are in the guilty camp would support full disclosure in the interests of justice. 

[Alias]

Truth is, there ARE too few people behind Bamber. What is needed is perhaps, is a good documentary about the case, and a celebrity or two to be vocal about it to raise awareness. That would do the trick.

[Jackiepreece]

For  Bob
Just starting to PM all my twitter friends with Rochys video only another1694 to go and I will let you know the response
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Tweet favourited

From: Twitter <favorite-wnpxvrcerrpr2009=yvir.pb.hx-762a5@postmaster.twitter.com>
Date: 30 August 2011 21:39:25 GMT+01:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: overtonout (@checkedshoes) favorited one of your Tweets!
Reply-To: [email protected]
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Tweet favourited


From: Twitter <favorite-wnpxvrcerrpr2009=yvir.pb.hx-762a5@postmaster.twitter.com>
Date: 30 August 2011 21:24:31 GMT+01:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ceilidh Lerwick (@dispecta) favorited one of your Tweets!
Reply-To: [email protected]
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From: tweetymail <[email protected]>
Date: 30 August 2011 22:11:19 GMT+01:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: (1) New tweets mentioning you
Reply-To: tweetymail <[email protected]>

spannpt
@jackiepreece i will rt very interesting Jackie !x 4 minutes ago in reply to jackiepreece reply retweet fwd


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I believe the police and media always have a biased view against people who are adopted
Direct message sent by ? (@fascistCOW) to you (@jackiepreece) on Aug 31, 6:13 AM.


 
fascistCOW
?



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Hi, well that was an eye opener! Excellent video giving 'the other side'. Everything I've read until recently has backed the police Cont.
Direct message sent by Wendy Kerfoot (@1965Wendy) to you (@jackiepreece) on Aug 31, 6:02 AM.


 
1965Wendy
Wendy Kerfoot

 







version of events. So, for people like me who've been looking for info, its excellent. Plus, music spot on too! x
Direct message sent by Wendy Kerfoot (@1965Wendy) to you (@jackiepreece) on Aug 31, 6:03 AM.


 
1965Wendy
Wendy Kerfoot


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pulsecsi
@jackiepreece @TaniceJudge @thebibliofreak @samgilpin @AW_OBrien @janiscowan Wow very powerful watch, thank you - lots of unanswered... 6 seconds ago in reply to jackiepreece reply reply all retweet fwd

[ngb1066]

...Hearing the shot police then rushed into the bedroom and found Sheila.  They removed the rifle from her body and checked for signs of life, changing the position of the body.  Realising that they had messed up the raid they panicked.  They repositioned the body and the rifle.  They agreed that they would not mention originally seeing Sheila in the kitchen.

Neil - if this were true I don't see as it provides a compelling reason for the entire raid team to fall in behind a subsequent plot to frame JB. The actions of the raid team as described in your account are not negligent enough to warrant creating such a massive conspiracy to cover their tracks and for so many people to stay silent for so long.If they shot her themselves as Mike seems to think, then maybe that could support such a conspiracy, but simply failing to check signs of life whilst securing the house under such circumstances doesn't cut it for me as a reason for every one of them supporting the framing of JB.

Bob  - The point you make is a fair one.  I accept that the actions of the raid team in my suggested sequence of events would not have led to criminal proceedings against the officers involved and therefore on first analysis it seems surprising that they should have entered into a conspiracy of silence.  However they could have faced disciplinary action, as failing to ascertain that Sheila was still alive and also failing to render the rifle safe amounted to negligence and very poor leadership by the officer in charge of the team.  The decision to remain silent about initially finding Sheila in the kitchen may have appeared to the officers as a pragmatic step, with no harm done. This was not a case of fitting somebody up.  It was four murders and a suicide and Sheila had in fact shot herself in the bedroom and died there.  The silence was therefore only in relation to one detail in the sequence of events and as far as the officers were concerned, that detail did not really matter.  Having made the decision to conceal this detail the officers were then trapped.  When the nature of the enquiry changed from four murders and a suicide to five murders the officers could not reveal the truth because they would then have been in very serious trouble. 

The reason I have had to conclude that my version of events is likely to be correct is that on the evidence available it seems to me to be the least unlikely.  I believe that the evidence that initially the police found two bodies in the kitchen, one male and one female, is persuasive.  It is therefore necessary to present a sequence of events that fits in with that.  The only alternative explanation I can see is that the police for some reason moved Sheila's body upstairs.  I can think of no logical reason why they would do that.  Obviously if I am wrong about Sheila being found in the kitchen my suggested version of events can be simplified, with Sheila shooting herself twice in the bedroom.



 

[bob]

It really does take the biscuit. I've just checked, and the number of signatures is STILL 22 , even though I pointed this out earlier today and several Probies have responded.

What's the problem? Why arent you signing? Are you all scared of adding your real names and addresses to the cause?!

And why isn't it Jackie on here screaming about this instead of me? 

Bob  -  In fairness this e-petition is not something that Jeremy Bamber's campaign team have set up and therefore no effort has been made to publicise it.   It is therefore not surprising that it is not generating support in any numbers. I suspect that if the campaign team decided to put their weight behind an e-petition in support of all the withheld evidence being disclosed there would be very strong public support.  That might be something worth considering as many people who do not have a firm view on guilt or innocence as well as some who are in the guilty camp would support full disclosure in the interests of justice.

I agree NGB- most undecideds and even a few "antis" would sign that. I am surprised that this petition web site is not being targetted by JB campaigners though. It's not as if it does any harm or takes much time that detracts from other campaigning activities.

[bob]

...Hearing the shot police then rushed into the bedroom and found Sheila.  They removed the rifle from her body and checked for signs of life, changing the position of the body.  Realising that they had messed up the raid they panicked.  They repositioned the body and the rifle.  They agreed that they would not mention originally seeing Sheila in the kitchen.

Neil - if this were true I don't see as it provides a compelling reason for the entire raid team to fall in behind a subsequent plot to frame JB. The actions of the raid team as described in your account are not negligent enough to warrant creating such a massive conspiracy to cover their tracks and for so many people to stay silent for so long.If they shot her themselves as Mike seems to think, then maybe that could support such a conspiracy, but simply failing to check signs of life whilst securing the house under such circumstances doesn't cut it for me as a reason for every one of them supporting the framing of JB.

Bob  - The point you make is a fair one.  I accept that the actions of the raid team in my suggested sequence of events would not have led to criminal proceedings against the officers involved and therefore on first analysis it seems surprising that they should have entered into a conspiracy of silence.  However they could have faced disciplinary action, as failing to ascertain that Sheila was still alive and also failing to render the rifle safe amounted to negligence and very poor leadership by the officer in charge of the team.  The decision to remain silent about initially finding Sheila in the kitchen may have appeared to the officers as a pragmatic step, with no harm done. This was not a case of fitting somebody up.  It was four murders and a suicide and Sheila had in fact shot herself in the bedroom and died there.  The silence was therefore only in relation to one detail in the sequence of events and as far as the officers were concerned, that detail did not really matter.  Having made the decision to conceal this detail the officers were then trapped.  When the nature of the enquiry changed from four murders and a suicide to five murders the officers could not reveal the truth because they would then have been in very serious trouble. 

The reason I have had to conclude that my version of events is likely to be correct is that on the evidence available it seems to me to be the least unlikely.  I believe that the evidence that initially the police found two bodies in the kitchen, one male and one female, is persuasive.  It is therefore necessary to present a sequence of events that fits in with that.  The only alternative explanation I can see is that the police for some reason moved Sheila's body upstairs.  I can think of no logical reason why they would do that.  Obviously if I am wrong about Sheila being found in the kitchen my suggested version of events can be simplified, with Sheila shooting herself twice in the bedroom.

Thanks for the detailed reply Neil - see what you are saying, but I wonder if avoiding getting into more serious trouble would be enough for every one of them to commit a man they knew to be innocent to a life behind bars? I would have guessed there would have been a least a few good men of conscience would would have gotten together and said enough is enough at some stage?

On your final point - do you at all entertain the possibility that Sheila was never downstairs, and the "one dead male, one dead female" was the result of confusion over an initial report of the misidentification of Ralph through the window being relayed locally to an officer stood outside the building? That's how I think it might have came about.

[ngb1066]

150 words is too few for me to outline my own theory.  I would not have made a good journalist - lawyers are always long winded!  Here is my view:

Sheila experienced a psychotic episode triggered by the drastic reduction of her Halperol dose coupled with the suggestion by Nevill and June that the twins should be fostered.  At around 3.00 am Nevill was woken by sounds of movement. He went downstairs and found Sheila in an agitated state holding the Anschutz rifle.  Nevill tried to calm her down but she ran upstairs.  Nevill telephoned Jeremy and asked him to come to WHF.  Nevill believed the situation could be contained as had happened with similar episodes when Sheila had lost control. Whilst on the phone to Jeremy Nevill was alarmed by a sound upstairs - possibly a shot was fired.  He dropped the phone and ran upstairs into his bedroom.  He saw that June had been shot in bed by Sheila.  Several shots had been fired. Sheila turned the gun on Nevill and shot him 3 or 4 times, causing him extreme pain and incapacitating him.  Nevill was then not in any condition to restrain Sheila physically.  He fled back downstairs, possibly hoping to activate the panic alarm or to call the police.  He reached the kitchen but overcome by his injuries he slumpted onto a chair.   Sheila shot Nevill again, emptying the magazine.  She then struck Nevill around the head with the butt of the rifle.  She then loaded 3 or 4 rounds of ammunition into the rifle and fired further shots at close range into Nevill's head, killing him.  She loaded the rifle again with 3 or 4 rounds and went upstairs.  She found that June had managed to get out of bed and had reached the door of the bedroom.  She fired further shots which killed June.  She went downstairs again and loaded further rounds into the rifle. She went back upstairs into the twins bedroom and found them still asleep.  She shot them both in the head, using 7 shots.  Sheila then had a shower, putting the clothes she had been wearing into soak downstairs.  She put on a clean nightdress.  She wandered about the house and in due course saw the police from an upstairs window.  She leaned the rifle against that window.  Shortly before the raid team forced an entry Sheila went back downstairs with the rifle, possibly in order to reload.  She lay down on the kitchen floor and fired a shot into her neck.  The shot rendered her unconscious. When the raid team entered they saw the bodies Nevill and Sheila, who both appeared to be dead.  They took steps to search the rest of the house leaving no police officer in the kitchen.  Sheila regained consciousness.  She got up, picked up the rifle and went upstairs.  She went into her parents' bedroom, lay down and shot herself again, this time fatally.  Hearing the shot police then rushed into the bedroom and found Sheila.  They removed the rifle from her body and checked for signs of life, changing the position of the body.  Realising that they had messed up the raid they panicked.  They repositioned the body and the rifle.  They agreed that they would not mention originally seeing Sheila in the kitchen.

Much of the above is founded firmly upon available evidence.  Some detail is obviously speculation but in my view is consistent with the available evidence.  I accept that there are other tenable explanations but overall I belief this one is the most likely.

So to summarize... you are saying that she shot June, then shot Neville, then chased him downstairs and battered him, then reloaded and shot him again, then went back upstairs and shot June again as she had been moving around upstairs, and only then went to shoot the twins who had miraculously slept through this gun-toting masacre?!

Yes in essence I am saying that, although I accept that there are other possible scenarios.  By condensing what I have said in the way you have done you make it sound unlikely, and that is fair enough.  However if I turn it round to your scenario with Jeremy as the killer you have the additional problem of having to deal with Sheila.  That makes three adults to deal with, and the additional problem of having to ensure that Sheila was compliant enough to allow herself to be shot in a way suggestive of suicide.  I suggest that this is a far less likely scenario than mine.