An acid test for forum members

[shonapugs]

If you wish to make allegations that you have privileged information that Jeremy hired a hitman to kill his family - and that's what your post did - then you must be scrupulously careful to detail your sources, who they are, their nature and how they claim to have come by the information they allege they have.
...
 
He does not need wild and unattributed remarks from questionable sources making unsupported allegations. I suggest that this is what your source has done.

That's fair comment Choch, and I agree about unsubstantiated "evidence" - I have been saying that for months with regards to the content of the Shaw manuscript being used in that regard, and most people now seem to agree with me (although many are still happy to throw Shaw into discussion at the drop of a hat).

But do you, and others, apply the same logic to Mike's long-standing claim that there exists a photo of Sheila on the bed? To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence of this other than one man's claim, but I have not seen it subjected to much debate.

Just saying... 

Hi Bob,

I hope I point out the issues with Shaw's manuscript if I refer to it, though I much prefer Wilkes' book, as you see from the quotes below:

I would welcome any book recommendations about the case that give a balanced view.

I personally would recommend the following:

Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes  ISBN 0-14-024200-7

Wilkes' book, though a bit out of date (in common with all of the books about this case), is very well researched. Wilkes read all of the available statements and case material and spent many hours interviewing Jeremy Bamber, his extended family and other witnesses. I believe Wilkes' book gives a balanced account.

I recommend Wilkes though he does not conclude that Jeremy is innocent, his view is that it's too close to call, because I believe his is the best researched and most objective account.

Regarding Mike stating that he saw a photo of Sheila on the bed. I personally don't doubt that Mike saw this because he has produced so much evidence in support of most of his other claims that I find it hard to doubt him. Also, anyone who does doubt Mike on any issue is free to challenge him on this, so if you feel an issue has not been properly debated, why not raise it yourself, Bob?

Given that this is a pro- Bamber forum, I think Mike is remarkably open in the way he runs the site and invites challenges from all sides of the debate, pro and anti, don't you?

I honestly can't remember - when you join this forum, does it actually state that it is specifically pro-Bamber?

[shonapugs]

Isn't a forum an exchange of views?

[Alias]

If you wish to make allegations that you have privileged information that Jeremy hired a hitman to kill his family - and that's what your post did - then you must be scrupulously careful to detail your sources, who they are, their nature and how they claim to have come by the information they allege they have.
...
 
He does not need wild and unattributed remarks from questionable sources making unsupported allegations. I suggest that this is what your source has done.

That's fair comment Choch, and I agree about unsubstantiated "evidence" - I have been saying that for months with regards to the content of the Shaw manuscript being used in that regard, and most people now seem to agree with me (although many are still happy to throw Shaw into discussion at the drop of a hat).

But do you, and others, apply the same logic to Mike's long-standing claim that there exists a photo of Sheila on the bed? To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence of this other than one man's claim, but I have not seen it subjected to much debate.

Just saying... 

Hi Bob,

I hope I point out the issues with Shaw's manuscript if I refer to it, though I much prefer Wilkes' book, as you see from the quotes below:

I would welcome any book recommendations about the case that give a balanced view.

I personally would recommend the following:

Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes  ISBN 0-14-024200-7

Wilkes' book, though a bit out of date (in common with all of the books about this case), is very well researched. Wilkes read all of the available statements and case material and spent many hours interviewing Jeremy Bamber, his extended family and other witnesses. I believe Wilkes' book gives a balanced account.

I recommend Wilkes though he does not conclude that Jeremy is innocent, his view is that it's too close to call, because I believe his is the best researched and most objective account.

Regarding Mike stating that he saw a photo of Sheila on the bed. I personally don't doubt that Mike saw this because he has produced so much evidence in support of most of his other claims that I find it hard to doubt him. Also, anyone who does doubt Mike on any issue is free to challenge him on this, so if you feel an issue has not been properly debated, why not raise it yourself, Bob?

Given that this is a pro- Bamber forum, I think Mike is remarkably open in the way he runs the site and invites challenges from all sides of the debate, pro and anti, don't you?

I honestly can't remember - when you join this forum, does it actually state that it is specifically pro-Bamber?

There is a hint. Left top corner: 9466 Days of Wrongful Conviction. The "wronful" gives it away. 

[chochokeira]

If you wish to make allegations that you have privileged information that Jeremy hired a hitman to kill his family - and that's what your post did - then you must be scrupulously careful to detail your sources, who they are, their nature and how they claim to have come by the information they allege they have.
...
 
He does not need wild and unattributed remarks from questionable sources making unsupported allegations. I suggest that this is what your source has done.

That's fair comment Choch, and I agree about unsubstantiated "evidence" - I have been saying that for months with regards to the content of the Shaw manuscript being used in that regard, and most people now seem to agree with me (although many are still happy to throw Shaw into discussion at the drop of a hat).

But do you, and others, apply the same logic to Mike's long-standing claim that there exists a photo of Sheila on the bed? To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence of this other than one man's claim, but I have not seen it subjected to much debate.

Just saying... 

Hi Bob,

I hope I point out the issues with Shaw's manuscript if I refer to it, though I much prefer Wilkes' book, as you see from the quotes below:

I would welcome any book recommendations about the case that give a balanced view.

I personally would recommend the following:

Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes  ISBN 0-14-024200-7

Wilkes' book, though a bit out of date (in common with all of the books about this case), is very well researched. Wilkes read all of the available statements and case material and spent many hours interviewing Jeremy Bamber, his extended family and other witnesses. I believe Wilkes' book gives a balanced account.

I recommend Wilkes though he does not conclude that Jeremy is innocent, his view is that it's too close to call, because I believe his is the best researched and most objective account.

Regarding Mike stating that he saw a photo of Sheila on the bed. I personally don't doubt that Mike saw this because he has produced so much evidence in support of most of his other claims that I find it hard to doubt him. Also, anyone who does doubt Mike on any issue is free to challenge him on this, so if you feel an issue has not been properly debated, why not raise it yourself, Bob?

Given that this is a pro- Bamber forum, I think Mike is remarkably open in the way he runs the site and invites challenges from all sides of the debate, pro and anti, don't you?

I honestly can't remember - when you join this forum, does it actually state that it is specifically pro-Bamber?

There is a hint. Left top corner: 9466 Days of Wrongful Conviction. The "wronful" gives it away. 

Good point, abs +1

[chochokeira]

Yeah Jackie, it was indeed third hand as it happens.

I'm meeting a member of Jeremy's original defence team on Sunday evening to discuss aspects of the case. Anything to report will clearly be second hand, but I'm not sure I'll waste my time.

I would be very interested to hear how any of his original team feel , knowing what they do now !!

I spoke to one of the guys tonight. He said it was two young police officers who attended the scene that told Jones in no uncertain terms that it looked like a mass murder. Jones was dismissive towards them.

One of the officers went over the head of Jones and made an allegation against him.

This occurred before any member of the family confronted Jones.

So it seems fair to say that it was members of Essex Police who first alerted their superiors against the suicide theory.

Your informant must have read the Wilkes book, Sparks, this is what Wilkes states.

[Jackiepreece]

Sparkfilms so if these amazing young coppers were convinced it was a murder why did the police let evidence destroyed I do not believe if some coppers pointed something important out the police would have let evidence be burnt

It's easy for someone to come out with that now

[chochokeira]

Sparkfilms so if these amazing young coppers were convinced it was a murder why did the police let evidence destroyed I do not believe if some coppers pointed something important out the police would have let evidence be burnt

It's easy for someone to come out with that now

Excellent point, Jackie +1

[mertol22]

And it was the police who took that decision to burn carpets bedding ect not Jeremy.

[chochokeira]

And it was the police who took that decision to burn carpets bedding ect not Jeremy.

Exactly, Mertol +1

You're up late too, Mertol. I'm just off to bed now, or I'll never be up in the morning. Night, mertol and everyone x

[Jackiepreece]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Further to this the preference Sparks goes on to try to persuade us Matthew was the hitman who carried out the murders because a very reliable source of his explained how Matthew shot Sheila.

This reliable source even gave him secret privileged information a police raid took place and it did.

This reliable source sounds to me like he could well be an Essex Policeman couldn't he.

Well done Sparks for all this work and thankyou to Essex Police for help with the poll and also the help given now we know how Sheila was murdered

Really Sparks I expected better from you

Any more posts and information like that and I will be thinking you are connected to Vidvic the elusive sky cameraman who is in  outer Mongolia or timbucktoo I cant remember which one! Anyway it's somewhere they don't have www

[Sparkfilms]

Good morning Jackie,

I am not suggesting McDonald was the shooter - only that he told people that he was.

It is not a poll as such. It is more like this. Of the 25 people I have spoken to 24 are going for guilty. I'm sorry if this disappoints you.

It could well be that you or anyone else would get completely different feedback from other people.

I would much rather the 25 to 1 be in favour of Jeremy, because if this was so it would encourage me to work more on the case

This forum gives people the opportunity to express their views.

How about you give us your clear and definitive version of events in plain and simple language.

I will make no attempt to smash it down.

[grahameb]

Good morning Jackie,

I am not suggesting McDonald was the shooter - only that he told people that he was.

It is not a poll as such. It is more like this. Of the 25 people I have spoken to 24 are going for guilty. I'm sorry if this disappoints you.

It could well be that you or anyone else would get completely different feedback from other people.

I would much rather the 25 to 1 be in favour of Jeremy, because if this was so it would encourage me to work more on the case

This forum gives people the opportunity to express their views.

How about you give us your clear and definitive version of events in plain and simple language.

I will make no attempt to smash it down.

Are these randon people from the general public? Or those directly connected with the case or the family?

[smiffy]

Good morning Jackie,

I am not suggesting McDonald was the shooter - only that he told people that he was.

It is not a poll as such. It is more like this. Of the 25 people I have spoken to 24 are going for guilty. I'm sorry if this disappoints you.

It could well be that you or anyone else would get completely different feedback from other people.

I would much rather the 25 to 1 be in favour of Jeremy, because if this was so it would encourage me to work more on the case

This forum gives people the opportunity to express their views.

How about you give us your clear and definitive version of events in plain and simple language.

I will make no attempt to smash it down.

To be frank with you here.
The hitman nonsense is just that..nonsense and any worthwhile investigator will see that fairly quickly in this case and not bother wasting time going down that route.
 A poll amongst 25 people who will only likely know one side of the case will give results that are based on their level of knowledge...hence you get an expected result. It proves little and is no basis at all to make a decision on as to whether to continue investigating or not.

In my view...express your opinions if you like . As an investigator you come across as being inept and you may think you are good but I have real training in conducting investigations and you come across to me as being hopeless.

Too many book writers and film makers , blah blah get ideas that they can get to the bottom of things and are good researchers when the truth is many are not any good at all. Bob woof woof being a prime example.

[bob]

Do you know what I was really enjoying Sparks posts until I saw his results of a poll taken from the area showing the odds in favour of JB being guilty at 25-1 included Essex Police

What an amazing impartial poll and I take it from what I have read Bewes was also involved in this poll

Ok Jackie - here's a more scientific snapshot of how many people truly believe in JB's innocence...

You have 1700 followers on your Twitter feed, and use this regularly as evidence of how the momentum is building behind belief in JB's innocence etc.

It is now near the end of "Freedom Fortnight" during which you've all made an extra special push in this regard.

At the beginning of "Freedom Fortnight" one of JB's supporters started an official government petition to have the matter of JB's release debated in parliament.

At the time of posting it has 22 (count them - TWENTY TWO) signatures

That's probably less than the number of regular pro-Bamber posters on this forum alone - so even many of those people are so unconvinced by the argument that they can't be bothered to spend two minutes signing an online petition! And that's before we get into the missing 1700 twitter followers.

I admire your conviction etc. but it really is about time to put this into some kind of perspective, otherwise you're setting yourselves up for a very big disappointment 

And don't say this is a bullying post - you opened this topic by criticising Spark's snapshot of local opinion 

[grahameb]

That is why I don't have any confidence in any poll whatsoever.