PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body

[curiousessex]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...

In the picture posted I see 5 windows upstairs and a bricked up window.

Who is correct?

[H]

No I disagree, he clearly says "along the wall the the left of the premises".

In the first instance, I would say that his lefts and rights were from the perspective of facing the house and not facing away from the house, this would be consistent when he later says he turned right into the kitchen.

In the second instance, an approach along the garden wall you suggest would leave them completely exposed and not in cover, so I would expect it's more likely that they approached the door along the wall of the main house to the left of the door where they would not be exposed.

And in the third instance, the kitchen is mentioned twice, going past the door and looking through the window into the kitchen area, once inside they immediately turn right into the kitchen.

... ... ... ... ...

That's my take on it anyway.

[mike tesko]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

[smiffy]

I'm not terribly interested in discussing this with Smiffy.

What do other people think?

Here is an extract to Manners statement linked to in my previous post, he mentions approaching along the wall to the left of the premises, going past the door and looking into the kitchen, once inside they turned right into the kitchen.

I can't see how it can be interpreted in any way, than as I've described, it's very clear (to me).

I disagree with you .
The kitchen to the right is founded on entering the premises through the external door so in that case the orientation is totally clear.
For the house ..what is the left of the house and what is the right...do we take it from what we accept as being a view from the front or a view from the back...it is ambiguous unless a perspective is fixed to establish what is left or what is right.
ok common sense lesson over.

Woodcook and Manners both mention Collins and Delgado both going past the door to look through a window... in  a manner that typically is seen in police statements when police witnesses tend to collude on what they write...there not supposed to do this and the big pretence is that they dont do this but anyone in the know is aware.

My view and the safest route from both Woodcock and Manners descriptions is that they approached from the left when looking at the back door so that they do speak of Collins and Delgado looking through the kitchen window. However I am not totally convinced of this as yet.
That said though ...I do wonder why they dont claim to have used a mirror to check but there may be an answer to that.
Woodcock claims he and Manners (Manners does not mention this) ...approached the green/white corner to do a recce.  If so one would expect them to have checked the windows either side of the door in such an approach before bringing in the rest of the raid party.
It makes no sense at all to have the firearms team all creep under the window that looks into the area behind the door and not look through it to check prior to entry.....6 men with firearms and one also having a sledgehammer creeping low  ..hmmm think about it.

Woodcock's statement and Manners look contrived and from an identical source at some parts which raises suspicion about those key elements.


Do remember that if Woodcock and Manners did do a a recce and check through the windows either side of the door an approach from the right hugging the wall would be safer with officers monitoring the upstairs window as they approached...ie the other firearms officers not in the raid team providing cover as well.

[bob]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

Mike - the whole of the front of the house is a wall - why are you choosing to interpret "wall" as meaning the garden wall, and not the house wall? It seems you are going out of your way to make something that is entirely consistent look like it's inconsistent.

[H]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

I agree it cannot be in doubt, as per my previous post. 

I also believe that (in my opinion) that you don't really believe yourself here, either that or your theories in this thread become null and void. The more you argue this point then the more you argue against your theory in that thread. If I didn't know better I might think you were playing games. 

And just to be clear, this is just my opinion, I am not putting words in your mouth or telling you what to think or anything else, this is just my take on it.

[mike tesko]

I'm not terribly interested in discussing this with Smiffy.

What do other people think?

Here is an extract to Manners statement linked to in my previous post, he mentions approaching along the wall to the left of the premises, going past the door and looking into the kitchen, once inside they turned right into the kitchen.

I can't see how it can be interpreted in any way, than as I've described, it's very clear (to me).

I disagree with you .
The kitchen to the right is founded on entering the premises through the external door so in that case the orientation is totally clear.
For the house ..what is the left of the house and what is the right...do we take it from what we accept as being a view from the front or a view from the back...it is ambiguous unless a perspective is fixed to establish what is left or what is right.
ok common sense lesson over.

Woodcook and Manners both mention Collins and Delgado both going past the door to look through a window... in  a manner that typically is seen in police statements when police witnesses tend to collude on what they write...there not supposed to do this and the big pretence is that they dont do this but anyone in the know is aware.

My view and the safest route from both Woodcock and Manners descriptions is that they approached from the left when looking at the back door so that they do speak of Collins and Delgado looking through the kitchen window. However I am not totally convinced of this as yet.
That said though ...I do wonder why they dont claim to have used a mirror to check but there may be an answer to that.
Woodcock claims he and Manners (Manners does not mention this) ...approached the green/white corner to do a recce.  If so one would expect them to have checked the windows either side of the door in such an approach before bringing in the rest of the raid party.
It makes no sense at all to have the firearms team all creep under the window that looks into the area behind the door and not look through it to check prior to entry.....6 men with firearms and one also having a sledgehammer creeping low  ..hmmm think about it.

Woodcock's statement and Manners look contrived and from an identical source at some parts which raises suspicion about those key elements.


Do remember that if Woodcock and Manners did do a a recce and check through the windows either side of the door an approach from the right hugging the wall would be safer with officers monitoring the upstairs window as they approached...ie the other firearms officers not in the raid team providing cover as well.

------------

Its ambiguous, I agree, but at the end of the day there is only one wall, that wall is either to the right of the door (if facing the farmhouse) or to the left (if standing with your back to the farmhouse) - since there is only one wall, right or left of the door, and if Collins and Delgado went past the door to look into the window which they describe or refer to as the kitchen window, I think it is safe to conclude that they did not look in through the main kitchen window, but the other kitchen window, the one adjacent to the downstairs office?

I also agree with Smiffy, about when the recce which was done on the house before the approach of the main squad approaching the farmhouse, why didn't either of them see the body which Collins later claims to have seen there? Irrespective of him making a mistake about the sex of the body he saw or not - why wasn't there a body there at the time of the original recce?

How come Woodcock and manners, did not see what Collins saw, when he later went to one of the windows after the raid team approached the farmhouse door?

[bob]

Its ambiguous, I agree, but at the end of the day there is only one wall,

Just out of interest... what do you call the walls of your house Mike if you don't call them "walls"?

[mike tesko]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

I agree it cannot be in doubt, as per my previous post. 

I also believe that (in my opinion) that you don't really believe yourself here, either that or your theories in this thread become null and void. The more you argue this point then the more you argue against your theory in that thread. If I didn't know better I might think you were playing games. 

And just to be clear, this is just my opinion, I am not putting words in your mouth or telling you what to think or anything else, this is just my take on it.

...


How come Woodcock and Manners did not see the body in the kitchen, when they went to do their recce, and yet later, Collins saw the female body when he went past the door with PC Delgado? If there was no body there at all when Woodcock and Manners looked through the downstairs windows, under what circumstances could a body have appeared there in the interim period, to enable PC Collins to see a female body there minutes later, that he describes as a female body?

Forget about female/male body for the moment - I am just trying to fathom out where the body came from between the Woodcock/manners recce, and the Collins/Delgado venture?

[H]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

I agree it cannot be in doubt, as per my previous post. 

I also believe that (in my opinion) that you don't really believe yourself here, either that or your theories in this thread become null and void. The more you argue this point then the more you argue against your theory in that thread. If I didn't know better I might think you were playing games. 

And just to be clear, this is just my opinion, I am not putting words in your mouth or telling you what to think or anything else, this is just my take on it.

...


How come Woodcock and Manners did not see the body in the kitchen, when they went to do their recce, and yet later, Collins saw the female body when he went past the door with PC Delgado? If there was no body there at all when Woodcock and Manners looked through the downstairs windows, under what circumstances could a body have appeared there in the interim period, to enable PC Collins to see a female body there minutes later, that he describes as a female body?

Forget about female/male body for the moment - I am just trying to fathom out where the body came from between the Woodcock/manners recce, and the Collins/Delgado venture?

Well a quick recce of the house does not imply they went off looking through windows (in my opinion).

Do you have Delgado's witness statement? Would you consider posting it for the purposes of this discussion?

[mike tesko]

Its ambiguous, I agree, but at the end of the day there is only one wall,

Just out of interest... what do you call the walls of your house Mike if you don't call them "walls"?

------

there are two main sides to my house, the front and the back..

[H]

Its ambiguous, I agree, but at the end of the day there is only one wall,

Just out of interest... what do you call the walls of your house Mike if you don't call them "walls"?

------

there are two main sides to my house, the front and the back..

Yes no doubt you have front and back walls. Unless the roof goes all the way to the ground like some of the strange constructions in Holland. I've never been to your house, so I'm just guessing here by the way.

[mike tesko]

Since there is no wall to the right of the farmhouse, only a wall to the left, the raid team could not have approached the farmhouse door, by any other route, other than using the wall I am referring to, which was/is to the left of the door as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being behind you, or to the right of the door, as viewed from the vantage point of the farmhouse being directly in front of you - since there is only one wall to one side of the door in question, I should think the direction the raid team approached the farmhouse door cannot be in any doubt?

Mike - the whole of the front of the house is a wall - why are you choosing to interpret "wall" as meaning the garden wall, and not the house wall? It seems you are going out of your way to make something that is entirely consistent look like it's inconsistent.

...............

The front of the house which you appear to be referring to, was actually the back of the farmhouse - in my opinion, you would not refer to the building itself as a wall, you would refer to it as the building or the premises, or for clarity, you would say the wall of the building, if that is what you were referring to. If you make a specific point of mentioning a wall, it can only mean a reference to an independent wall attached to the building on which ever side of the building it was attached to?

[mike tesko]

Its ambiguous, I agree, but at the end of the day there is only one wall,

Just out of interest... what do you call the walls of your house Mike if you don't call them "walls"?

------

there are two main sides to my house, the front and the back..

Yes no doubt you have front and back walls. Unless the roof goes all the way to the ground like some of the strange constructions in Holland. I've never been to your house, so I'm just guessing here by the way.

...........

There are in fact, only two main sides to my home, the front and back, because I live in a mid terrace house, although other houses in the area where I live, have three walls, or as the case may be four (if you include the detached premises or buildings) - but technically speaking, at whf there are/were four sides to the farmhouse, front, back, right and left...

For the purpose of being specific, that would be, right of the front face of the farmhouse, and left - or left of the rear face of the farmhouse, and right, depending upon your vantage point when you were making your observation...

[H]

Yes made out of masonry and actually called walls.

Anyway this is getting silly, we both know what each other is saying.

Regarding Delgado's statement, would you consider posting it? It's fine if you say no and I won't ask you again.