Channel 5 documentary 8th June 9.00 pm - 10.30 pm

[Adam]

I am not getting sucked into your mad world of answering machines.  There's no evidence JB had one at Bourtree PRE 7th Aug.

His TikTok account says he had one but switched it off before going to bed.

Nevill would have had to wait a long time for Jeremy to answer. That went well.

[Zoso]

We have been over it numerous times.  Gun crime, especially one involving 25/26 gunshots, creates a mountain of data which can be reconstructed to locate the position of the victim and perpertrator at the point the perpertrator discharges the firearm and the victim sustains their gunshot wound.  The totality of this data: blood stains on flooring, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  In this case it has not been reconstructed by experts.  I have put together my own reconstruction and it shows a very different picture to the one painted at trial.

This in and of itself is unlikely to be strong enough for a referral to CoA but it is certainly a very strong point and is the type of evidence that needs pursuing.  But instead we are getting a lot of stuff that is not even capable of getting off the starting blocks let alone passing through the CCRC and onto the CoA.

Unfortunately, you have no idea if those casings landed where they were discovered. Certainly those around June can't be relied upon, due the duvet cover on the floor. All you ca say is that they feel around that area. June had clearly moved around the room and the kitchen is also chaos. The raid team weren't interested in tip toeing over the casings either. We literally have no idea what was moved (or not) in that CS (except for Neville and the aga nonsense). Also, knowing where a person was, doesn't show you who was holding the gun - there would be nothing unique enough to create a "ha, ha!" moment, where the killer is finally revealed - although for me personally, they already have been.

[Cambridgecutie]

Unfortunately, you have no idea if those casings landed where they were discovered. Certainly those around June can't be relied upon, due the duvet cover on the floor. All you ca say is that they feel around that area. June had clearly moved around the room and the kitchen is also chaos. The raid team weren't interested in tip toeing over the casings either. We literally have no idea what was moved (or not) in that CS (except for Neville and the aga nonsense). Also, knowing where a person was, doesn't show you who was holding the gun - there would be nothing unique enough to create a "ha, ha!" moment, where the killer is finally revealed - although for me personally, they already have been.

The totality of the data, especially the trajectories pertaining to NB's gunshot wounds, are sufficient to support him sustaining his gunshot wounds on the landing with the shooter standing in the bedroom and shooting out onto the landing.  This is very different to what the jury was told at trial. 

[Rob_]

If the phone has not been put back on the cradle - it is the SAME as engaged! Also, for a person calling, they would have no clue whether it was engaged or off the hook. I'm not sure what point you're 'trying' to make, other than to create an argument that isn't even relevant to the case or the 999 call? I'm happy to argue or discuss the case - makes no odds to me but make it clear what you prefer?

Please give it a rest now Zoso if you cannot be bothered to establish what happens if a phone is picked up and no number dialed there is no hope!

For your information the line times out and goes off hook it is not engaged! Engaged is when two phones are connected and communication is possible even if nothing being said.

I was not referring to the 999 call in any case but the remark in the log saying the line was engaged when the opertator was asked to check the status.

[Zoso]

The totality of the data, especially the trajectories pertaining to NB's gunshot wounds, are sufficient to support him sustaining his gunshot wounds on the landing with the shooter standing in the bedroom and shooting out onto the landing.  This is very different to what the jury was told at trial.

That tells you who it was because?

[Zoso]

Please give it a rest now Zoso if you cannot be bothered to establish what happens if a phone is picked up and no number dialed there is no hope!

For your information the line times out and goes off hook it is not engaged! Engaged is when two phones are connected and communication is possible even if nothing being said.

I was not referring to the 999 call in any case but the remark in the log saying the line was engaged when the opertator was asked to check the status.

In 1985 and you called a land where the cradle wasn't put back, what do you think you would hear? You would hear the engaged tone in BOTH instances!! They knew almost immediately it was 'off the hook' when the operator checked the line! Other than that, I have no idea what you're going on about!

[ILB]

Everthing!  Is that brief enough?

Is it true Jeremy declined your services?

[ILB]

His TikTok account says he had one but switched it off before going to bed.

Nevill would have had to wait a long time for Jeremy to answer. That went well.

Take your hypothesis about the AM, and let's say for a moment he did call Jeremy, do you believe in those type of cir um stances he wouldn't try to phone him because hed fear he would get his AM?

[Rob_]

In 1985 and you called a land where the cradle wasn't put back, what do you think you would hear? You would hear the engaged tone in BOTH instances!! They knew almost immediately it was 'off the hook' when the operator checked the line! Other than that, I have no idea what you're going on about!

What you hear if dialing in and the status of the line if you ask the operator are two different things.

The police asked the operator to check the line and was told it was off the hook, so the phone was off the cradle and not connected to another phone because it has timed out.

Latter at 5.45 the operator was asked to check the line again, and two minutes latter at 5.47 the log says "phone engaged @ scene".

So I posted was this just another mistake?

[Cambridgecutie]

Please give it a rest now Zoso if you cannot be bothered to establish what happens if a phone is picked up and no number dialed there is no hope!

For your information the line times out and goes off hook it is not engaged! Engaged is when two phones are connected and communication is possible even if nothing being said.

I was not referring to the 999 call in any case but the remark in the log saying the line was engaged when the opertator was asked to check the status.

We both believe NB made the phone call to JB.  The totality of the soc evidence shows NB then dropped the handset on the counter and went upstairs where he sustained his two facial gunshot wounds on the landing.
Meanwhile JB disconnected the call his end to make the call to EP.  Expert evidence at trial:

There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by Jeremy. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, Jeremy would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.

The line at WHF was open but not engaged.  I have uploaded the GPO op's WS from Jean Rowe.  Nowhere in the WS does she refer to the line engaged.  It was not engaged.  The line was open thus allowing her to listen in and put the open line through to EP.

There was no phone call from NB to EP or from WHF to 999.  The last call made from WHF before the police entered was NB to JB. 

[Cambridgecutie]

That tells you who it was because?

I thought we had been over this previously?

It does not tell you who it was exactly but it does strongly support JB's claim of a tel call and imo is the strongest he will ever get to supporting one. 

The totality of the soc evidence supports NB in the kitchen making the tel call, leaving the handset on the counter, going upstairs and sustaining his facial shots on the landing with the shooter inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing.  This is very different from the picture at trial. 

[Cambridgecutie]

Is it true Jeremy declined your services?

No.  David (aka as incel) posts absolute rubbish. 

[Cambridgecutie]

What you hear if dialing in and the status of the line if you ask the operator are two different things.

The police asked the operator to check the line and was told it was off the hook, so the phone was off the cradle and not connected to another phone because it has timed out.

Latter at 5.45 the operator was asked to check the line again, and two minutes latter at 5.47 the log says "phone engaged @ scene".

So I posted was this just another mistake?

What does Jean Rowe's WS state? 

[Adam]

What does Jean Rowe's WS state?

It is on this forum.

[Adam]

CC keeps saying 'the totality of the SOC evidence'.

She is aware this recieved a PSOR and then a SOR from me after she suggested it should be a ground. No new compelling supporting evidence was supplied by CC.