Article about recent decision

[Bubo bubo]

I thought if the telephone exchange was connected to monitor the line, it would still be the same and it would need the 2 mins to clear that’s all, I did put it as a a question by saying WOULDN’T.  So HB is not wrong at all, he’s asking?   So if the telephone exchange was connected would they need to some how disconnect?

The Chelmsford exchange was digital and one of the early adopters. Not surprising with Marconi being based there with all their telecoms knowledge and skilled workers/technicians. Monitoring the line would be easy peasy. They could manipulate the system to disconnect, switch etc.

It is more than likely that EP moved this phone downstairs so that it would appear that she had not been able to make a 999 call. They would have to remove the 'normal' kitchen phone with the last dialled number feature which was connected to the master socket. In this type of domestic system if there is no phone connected to the master socket all other phones cannot function.

[Bubo bubo]

No, he simply checked for a pulse and confirmed they were dead. There was no attempt made to establish a time.


This is an extract from Bernard Knights 5/9/86 witness statement on the time of death issue.

“In general, I have little criticism of the way in which Dr. Vanezis
conducted his post mortems, especially bearing in mind that he
had five cases to deal with in a short space of time. Perhaps the
major criticism would be his lack of any attempt to estimate the
time of death. I fully realise that this is a very inaccurate exercise,
but temperatures of bodies at the scene should have been taken
for completeness sake in case some very unusual result was
obtained. I realise that he was not called to the scene (or did not
arrive) until much later than is the usual practice of most Home
Office pathologists, but this is due to the different conditions which
pertain in and around London. Also his description of the actual
external appearance of the bullet wounds are perhaps not as full as
one would like, in terms of description of exact size, extent and
appearance of powder marks, burns, abrasion colour etc., but
again he was undoubtedly working under pressure. In general the
examinations were quite adequate.”

I was responding to his trial statement about TOD's but thanks for the Knight statement.

[Jane]

I dont really see your problem, Jane!
What was stopping Nevill turning and facing any direction once he entered the kitchen?
Everyone accepts that he entered from the stair door as opposed to the back door!

I'm inclined to think you're the only one who believes what you're claiming so vehemently! You certainly have a way of turning everything on its head to make it fit. Nott ever having suffered concussion, I understand that everyone who has -other, ot course, than Nevill- is disoriented and stumbles/falls when they try to get up.

[snow66!]

The Pathologist who examined the marks with his own eyes stated this in 2014

"I’ve thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years’ experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you’re more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone’s back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back.’ He discounts the poker: ‘No, I think it’s the gun pressed against his skin."

Its a shame this came out after 2011. NGB could the above have effected the CCRC submission? It refutes the CCRCs counter arguments considering its the same witness but with "another twenty-eight years’ experience.".

Not quite sure what you are getting at here, Dave?

[Jane]

Not quite sure what you are getting at here, Dave?

The pathologist's words couldn't be more clear, could they? He's weighed up the possibilities and reached a conclusion. I'm not sure what it is you don't understand.

[Hardy Boy]

The Chelmsford exchange was digital and one of the early adopters. Not surprising with Marconi being based there with all their telecoms knowledge and skilled workers/technicians. Monitoring the line would be easy peasy. They could manipulate the system to disconnect, switch etc.

It is more than likely that EP moved this phone downstairs so that it would appear that she had not been able to make a 999 call. They would have to remove the 'normal' kitchen phone with the last dialled number feature which was connected to the master socket. In this type of domestic system if there is no phone connected to the master socket all other phones cannot function.

If the two lines were connected, how does one dial out from WHF?   WHF phone must have been off the hook to connect the lines and to listen in?  If the phone was off the hook at WHF then someone has to replace the phone back onto the cradle to break the connection, and I still think it could (not sure) require the two minutes force release period?  Now if the exchange breaks the call, maybe it didn’t need the force release period?

[David1819]

If the two lines were connected, how does one dial out from WHF?   WHF phone must have been off the hook to connect the lines and to listen in?  If the phone was off the hook at WHF then someone has to replace the phone back onto the cradle to break the connection, and I still think it could (not sure) require the two minutes force release period?  Now if the exchange breaks the call, maybe it didn’t need the force release period?

Correct, but I am not sure about the time.

[snow66!]

I'm inclined to think you're the only one who believes what you're claiming so vehemently! You certainly have a way of turning everything on its head to make it fit. Nott ever having suffered concussion, I understand that everyone who has -other, ot course, than Nevill- is disoriented and stumbles/falls when they try to get up.

Quite possibly, Jane.  Nevill may well have staggered and stumbled all over the place when he came round, indeed I have suggested as much myself!
Not in an ideal condition to confront Sheila upstairs.

[Hardy Boy]

Correct, but I am not sure about the time.

Tests were carried out on the 18/09/1985 and they also carried out tests on other exchanges to prove the two minutes.

[snow66!]

The pathologist's words couldn't be more clear, could they? He's weighed up the possibilities and reached a conclusion. I'm not sure what it is you don't understand.

Ah! You mean that the rifle barrel burned Nevills back through his pyjama jacket, Jane?
Well that was simply his best guess before the Aga evidence turned up! Go ask him now, Jane.
Ask him what he thinks of the Boyce theory.
Funny that none of the experts at trial have commented about Boyce's theory in the papers really!
Come on Mr Peter Vanezis, lets have your opinion on Mr Boyce's Aga burn theory, sir!
What about you, Mr Knight?? A mans liberty is at stake!!

[Bubo bubo]

If the two lines were connected, how does one dial out from WHF?   WHF phone must have been off the hook to connect the lines and to listen in?  If the phone was off the hook at WHF then someone has to replace the phone back onto the cradle to break the connection, and I still think it could (not sure) require the two minutes force release period? Now if the exchange breaks the call, maybe it didn’t need the force release period?

I believe the digital system allowed such an action without action at the premises. It had to be pretty clever for the call to be switched as requested. Do not forget that NB could have phoned JB from the bedroom rather than the kitchen and if crispy was in the bedroom it would account for the dog barking.

SC could have shot the twins after the call to JB. NB chases after her and they end up in the kitchen. She shoots NB then makes her way upstairs to shoot June. NB follows her but she shoots him again as he climbs the stairs and he escapes to the kitchen then they both end up back in the kitchen. It is possible that June has been shot a couple of times at this stage.

There are many ways it could have played out.

[Jane]

Quite possibly, Jane.  Nevill may well have staggered and stumbled all over the place when he came round, indeed I have suggested as much myself!
Not in an ideal condition to confront Sheila upstairs.

And having been unconscious for three hours, probably not possible, due to lack of balance.

[Hardy Boy]

Correct, but I am not sure about the time.

WHF only had one phone line, so if the kitchen phone was off the hook it wasn’t possible to dial out from any other phone, the last time Rowe was asked to make the connection she left the lines connected that was about 5.50 am that she was asked, not sure how long it took though?  So for anyone to ring out from WHF they would have to break the connection, those monitoring the line would have realised the break in connection, so if there had been a break in connection they would have had to ring back and get a connection again otherwise it would have been impossible to listen in I would have thought?

[Jane]

Ah! You mean that the rifle barrel burned Nevills back through his pyjama jacket, Jane?
Well that was simply his best guess before the Aga evidence turned up! Go ask him now, Jane.
Ask him what he thinks of the Boyce theory.
Funny that none of the experts at trial have commented about Boyce's theory in the papers really!
Come on Mr Peter Vanezis, lets have your opinion on Mr Boyce's Aga burn theory, sir!
What about you, Mr Knight?? A mans liberty is at stake!!

I didn't mean anything, Snow. I was quoting the pathologist. I don't believe Boyce has hadany great success with his previous theories. It appears he may not be held in very high by those of eminence, so it isn't really "funny" that they haven't "commented about Boyce's theory in the papers". Still, it allows you to go on doing your cheer leader bit, I suppose.

[snow66!]

And having been unconscious for three hours, probably not possible, due to lack of balance.

Well. if you're not happy with Nevill being hit on the head by Sheila, how about this, Jane!
Nevill, who was the wrong side of sixty with health problems including stress and worry about his mentally ill daughter succumbed to a heart attack or stroke and fell against the Aga while confronting Sheila in the kitchen after finding her with a loaded rifle??
Hows that??