Ukraine-The End Game-What happens next?

[Steve_uk]

    No. Why would they be? If you believe that China is a "threat to UK national security", could you spell out exactly how? The video you posted most certainly didn't, although it referred to this "threat" multiple times, the alleged threat/s remain unspecified. The threats are the other way around in reality.

Currently cyberthreats: Jaguar Landrover, Marks and Spencer, Harrods, the Co-op. I'm sure you've heard of the proposed new embassy in Tower Hamlets, the largest in Europe with its spy dungeon for interrogating dissidents and intercepting information communicated via underground cables.

There's the ever-existing threat against Taiwan, which provides most of Europe's semiconductors. China has cracked down on democracy in Hong Kong, a violation of the Thatcher-Howe agreement of One Country-Two Systems, which was supposed to endure for fifty years from 1997.

Given your preoccupation with genocide around the world I'm surprised you're not concerned about the Uighurs. Anyway, I'll let Iain Duncan Smith continue the talking. https://youtu.be/uUjsQDgynGs

[Hardy Boy]

No matter what you think about Trump, I think he is trying to end conflicts?  I think he’s put pressure on India to stop buying Russian oil?

Trump says he will meet Putin in Hungary for Ukraine talks after 'very productive' phone call,  Trump and Putin spoke for more than two hours - White House


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy85d9613zxt

[Steve_uk]

No matter what you think about Trump, I think he is trying to end conflicts?  I think he’s put pressure on India to stop buying Russian oil?

Trump says he will meet Putin in Hungary for Ukraine talks after 'very productive' phone call,  Trump and Putin spoke for more than two hours - White House


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy85d9613zxt

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Steve_uk]

I doubt we've heard the last of this story: https://youtu.be/FGEwWsr_Lg0

[Hardy Boy]

It’s a win win for Trump and Putin!


Trump's 28-point peace plan...
THE Telegraph has detailed what they expect to be in the 28-point peace plan:
1. Ukraine’s sovereignty will be confirmed
2. A non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe with all ambiguities of the last 30 years settled
3. Russia will agree to not invade neighbouring countries and Nato will not expand further.
4. Russia and Nato will speak on global security, mediated by the US
5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees
6. Ukrainian Armed Forces to be limited to 600,000 personnel
7. Ukraine agrees to not join Nato
8. Nato agrees to not station troops in Ukraine
9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10a. The US will receive compensation for a guarantee
10b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee
10c. If Russia invades Ukraine recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked
10d. If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be invalid
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership
12. Powerful package of measures implemented to help rebuild Ukraine including the creation of a Ukraine Development Fund
The US will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine’s gas infrastructure
Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.
Infrastructure development and extraction of minerals and natural resources
The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts
13a. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy with the lifting of sanctions to be discussed
13b. The US will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities
13c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8
14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:
$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine
The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture
Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine’s reconstruction
Frozen European funds will be unfrozen
The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas.
This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict
15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established
16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The US and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons
18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state
19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine
20a. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice
20b. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities
20c. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education
20d. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited
21a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian
21b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact
21c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions
21d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone where Russian forces will not enter
22. Russia and Ukraine won’t change these territorial arrangements by force
23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.
24a. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:
24b. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis
24c. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
24d. A family reunification programme will be implemented
24e. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days
26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future
27. This agreement will be legally binding and monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council
28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately

[Steve_uk]

It’s a win win for Trump and Putin!


Trump's 28-point peace plan...
THE Telegraph has detailed what they expect to be in the 28-point peace plan:
1. Ukraine’s sovereignty will be confirmed
2. A non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe with all ambiguities of the last 30 years settled
3. Russia will agree to not invade neighbouring countries and Nato will not expand further.
4. Russia and Nato will speak on global security, mediated by the US
5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees
6. Ukrainian Armed Forces to be limited to 600,000 personnel
7. Ukraine agrees to not join Nato
8. Nato agrees to not station troops in Ukraine
9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10a. The US will receive compensation for a guarantee
10b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee
10c. If Russia invades Ukraine recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked
10d. If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be invalid
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership
12. Powerful package of measures implemented to help rebuild Ukraine including the creation of a Ukraine Development Fund
The US will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine’s gas infrastructure
Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.
Infrastructure development and extraction of minerals and natural resources
The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts
13a. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy with the lifting of sanctions to be discussed
13b. The US will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities
13c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8
14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:
$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine
The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture
Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine’s reconstruction
Frozen European funds will be unfrozen
The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas.
This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict
15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established
16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The US and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons
18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state
19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine
20a. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice
20b. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities
20c. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education
20d. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited
21a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian
21b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact
21c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions
21d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone where Russian forces will not enter
22. Russia and Ukraine won’t change these territorial arrangements by force
23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.
24a. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:
24b. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis
24c. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
24d. A family reunification programme will be implemented
24e. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days
26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future
27. This agreement will be legally binding and monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council
28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately

I'd be surprised if Zelensky agrees to 21a.

The UN General Secretary gives his view: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/un-chief-says-any-ukraine-peace-deal-must-respect-un-principles-territorial-integrity/3750369

[Hardy Boy]

I'd be surprised if Zelensky agrees to 21a.

The UN General Secretary gives his view: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/un-chief-says-any-ukraine-peace-deal-must-respect-un-principles-territorial-integrity/3750369

To be honest Steve, I don’t think he’s going to have much choice. 

[Steve_uk]

To be honest Steve, I don’t think he’s going to have much choice.

Peace at any price..https://youtu.be/Ixt2GZQmCDM

[Hardy Boy]

To be honest Steve, I don’t think he’s going to have much choice.

DONALD Trump has warned Volodymr Zelensky that he will “have to approve” the US-backed peace plan or face the consequences.

Speaking at the White House, Trump ramped up the pressure on Ukraine’s hero leader to agree a 28-point plan thrashed out between Donald Trump’s team and the Kremlin.


In other words, except it, you cannot win, OH and by the way, your on your way out mate.

[gringo]

DONALD Trump has warned Volodymr Zelensky that he will “have to approve” the US-backed peace plan or face the consequences.

Speaking at the White House, Trump ramped up the pressure on Ukraine’s hero leader to agree a 28-point plan thrashed out between Donald Trump’s team and the Kremlin.


In other words, except it, you cannot win, OH and by the way, your on your way out mate.

   There is zero chance of Russia accepting these terms, HB. Losers don't get to dictate the terms of peace. It has now become 19 points after UK/EU meetings. The West is simply negotiating with itself at this point, unable to process that they have been defeated and will be acceding to terms rather than dictating them.

[Hardy Boy]

   There is zero chance of Russia accepting these terms, HB. Losers don't get to dictate the terms of peace. It has now become 19 points after UK/EU meetings. The West is simply negotiating with itself at this point, unable to process that they have been defeated and will be acceding to terms rather than dictating them.

I agree Gringo, Trump knows he’s not in a position to negotiate, that’s why he will apply max pressure on Ukraine soon.

[David1819]

It’s a win win for Trump and Putin!


Trump's 28-point peace plan...
THE Telegraph has detailed what they expect to be in the 28-point peace plan:
1. Ukraine’s sovereignty will be confirmed
2. A non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe with all ambiguities of the last 30 years settled
3. Russia will agree to not invade neighbouring countries and Nato will not expand further.
4. Russia and Nato will speak on global security, mediated by the US
5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees
6. Ukrainian Armed Forces to be limited to 600,000 personnel
7. Ukraine agrees to not join Nato
8. Nato agrees to not station troops in Ukraine
9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10a. The US will receive compensation for a guarantee
10b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee
10c. If Russia invades Ukraine recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked
10d. If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be invalid
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership
12. Powerful package of measures implemented to help rebuild Ukraine including the creation of a Ukraine Development Fund
The US will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine’s gas infrastructure
Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.
Infrastructure development and extraction of minerals and natural resources
The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts
13a. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy with the lifting of sanctions to be discussed
13b. The US will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities
13c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8
14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:
$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine
The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture
Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine’s reconstruction
Frozen European funds will be unfrozen
The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas.
This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict
15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established
16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The US and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons
18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state
19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine
20a. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice
20b. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities
20c. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education
20d. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited
21a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian
21b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact
21c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions
21d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone where Russian forces will not enter
22. Russia and Ukraine won’t change these territorial arrangements by force
23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.
24a. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:
24b. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis
24c. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
24d. A family reunification programme will be implemented
24e. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days
26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future
27. This agreement will be legally binding and monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council
28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately

My friend who lives in the city of Tula does not think the war will end any time soon.

[Roch]

I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine. I'm not russophobic and I'm not a Putin-hater. But it must be awful to lose part of your country. I do genuinely feel sorry for them. It's mental how there can be such industrial scale killing and misery on both sides, due to some grand game going on behind the scenes. These people who are involved with these grand murderous schemes should be forced to serve on the front lines. I'm sure they would cut ridiculous figures and I'm sure they would be quickly slain. Maybe that would solve a lot of the world's problems.

[Steve_uk]

I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine. I'm not russophobic and I'm not a Putin-hater. But it must be awful to lose part of your country. I do genuinely feel sorry for them. It's mental how there can be such industrial scale killing and misery on both sides, due to some grand game going on behind the scenes. These people who are involved with these grand murderous schemes should be forced to serve on the front lines. I'm sure they would cut ridiculous figures and I'm sure they would be quickly slain. Maybe that would solve a lot of the world's problems.

Russia is ready to fight “until the last Ukrainian dies”, Vladimir Putin has declared.

In remarks that will reverberate across Europe and the US, the Russian president insisted Ukraine must surrender territory, claiming his army is “practically impossible to hold back”.

“Some people demand to keep on fighting until the last Ukrainian dies, Russia is ready for that,” Putin said during a trip to Kyrgyzstan.

“If Ukrainian forces leave the territories they hold, then we will stop combat operations. If they don’t, then we will achieve it by military means.”

He said that the latest US peace proposal, negotiated with Ukraine and its European allies, could form “the basis for future agreements”, but then dismissed Ukraine’s leadership as illegitimate and said it was “senseless” to sign anything with them.

[Steve_uk]

Not much of a surprise really..https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgexgwr1wrro