Distribution of Casings

[Cambridgecutie]

The above is not an exact science as the casings can ricochet and get kicked about but enough were fired to see patterns especially in what was referred to as the main bedroom/NB's and June's bedroom.

The totality of the soc evidence: bloodstains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks does not support the prosecution case that JB entered the main bedroom and opened fire on his prone parents in bed.

It supports SC standing at the bottom of the bed, June's side, opening fire on a prone June.  NB coming upstairs from downstairs, with SC turning some 30/35 degrees to the right and inflicting the facial shots to NB as he was standing on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom. 

If you consider the casing layout diagram for the twin's room, bearing in mind the ejection port ejects to the right and forward, it shows the casings in areas you would expect.  If you do the same for the main bedroom it does not show casings in areas you would expect to see them based on the prosecution case.  It shows casings in areas you would expect to see them based on the totality of the soc evidence as described above. 

Curiosity will say NB disturbed the casings by throwing back the duvet.  But this is not what the soc image portrays.  It portrays NB leaving the bed unhastily probably bearing in mind a sleeping June.  It is as though he slid out of bed rather than jumped out throwing the duvet over June's side.

[Cambridgecutie]

Image of main bedroom:

[Hardy Boy]

The above is not an exact science as the casings can ricochet and get kicked about but enough were fired to see patterns especially in what was referred to as the main bedroom/NB's and June's bedroom.

The totality of the soc evidence: bloodstains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks does not support the prosecution case that JB entered the main bedroom and opened fire on his prone parents in bed.

It supports SC standing at the bottom of the bed, June's side, opening fire on a prone June.  NB coming upstairs from downstairs, with SC turning some 30/35 degrees to the right and inflicting the facial shots to NB as he was standing on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the main bedroom. 

If you consider the casing layout diagram for the twin's room, bearing in mind the ejection port ejects to the right and forward, it shows the casings in areas you would expect.  If you do the same for the main bedroom it does not show casings in areas you would expect to see them based on the prosecution case.  It shows casings in areas you would expect to see them based on the totality of the soc evidence as described above. 

Curiosity will say NB disturbed the casings by throwing back the duvet.  But this is not what the soc image portrays.  It portrays NB leaving the bed unhastily probably bearing in mind a sleeping June.  It is as though he slid out of bed rather than jumped out throwing the duvet over June's side.

The casings for Sheila wasn't in this place in the photo when the TFG entered and when TAFF did his quick assesment, they wasn't visible to anyone, they were underneath Sheila, and without checking covered by her head/hair or in this region.  I don't trust the diagram's now, Cook even had to go back the next day and retrieve some casings when he found out at the Autopsy that there was 25 shots fired,  this was essex police at their finest. 


 Taff calling a murder suicide and walking away, Soco just treat it that way, I know it's not right and i'm not sticking up for anyone, but the senior investigating officers were very PERFUNCTORY and this fed through the ranks.

[Bubo bubo]

The casings for Sheila wasn't in this place in the photo when the TFG entered and when TAFF did his quick assesment, they wasn't visible to anyone, they were underneath Sheila, and without checking covered by her head/hair or in this region.  I don't trust the diagram's now, Cook even had to go back the next day and retrieve some casings when he found out at the Autopsy that there was 25 shots fired,  this was essex police at their finest. 


 Taff calling a murder suicide and walking away, Soco just treat it that way, I know it's not right and i'm not sticking up for anyone, but the senior investigating officers were very PERFUNCTORY and this fed through the ranks.

[/b]

Two points HB. Firstly the way a Crime Scene is interpreted is critical. In an incident such as WHF where all the occupants were killed, the positioning of items used helps to working out what 'MAY' have happened. Primarily this is done by examining the placing of bullets and more importantly their casings.

It is possible by such positioning to manipulate the story to be told. Given the manipulation of and the withholding of documentation in this case I do not trust the findings in relation to bullets and casings. You yourself point out that SC was on top of a casing!!!?? This being the case all scenarios are to be approached with caution. Even the police cannot say with any degree of certainty what actually happened at what time and where. Only the victims knew.

Secondly you are being hard on Taff. He left the scene with the SIO, Harris to go to a meeting with the GPO.  He was under orders. There were other detectives around and about and they had all been briefed. They would have been contactable by radio if required.

[snow66!]

Didn't Taff do the only thing he could do to confirm murder suicide before he left?
ie, he checked all doors and windows were secured!= murder suicide!
It wasn't Taffs fault that the relatives made up a cock and bull story about the kitchen window!
A story that holds absolutely no weight! Where are the photos showing the bottom latch was not fixed?
At the very very least a video should have been shown to the jury of how JB could have exited the kitchen window and then secured it properly to fool Taff!
The whole case actually rests on JBs ability to enter,and then exit the WHF without leaving a trace!
Was this proven in any way? Was it Barlow or someone who said the side latch could be fixed by slamming shut the window but not the bottom peg?
Where is the photos of the kitchen window? All the police have to do is release a photo showing the bottom latch unfixed!
Why did Taff say all windows were latched and secure? He even went outside to check the pantry window with the mesh on it!
Nah! Taff did his job allright,what more could he do? After checking that the house had been secured from inside,it was up to pathologists to rule out any foul play,which they did!
Alas,then the shenanigans began!

[Jane]

Didn't Taff do the only thing he could do to confirm murder suicide before he left?
ie, he checked all doors and windows were secured!= murder suicide!
It wasn't Taffs fault that the relatives made up a cock and bull story about the kitchen window!
A story that holds absolutely no weight! Where are the photos showing the bottom latch was not fixed?
At the very very least a video should have been shown to the jury of how JB could have exited the kitchen window and then secured it properly to fool Taff!
The whole case actually rests on JBs ability to enter,and then exit the WHF without leaving a trace!
Was this proven in any way? Was it Barlow or someone who said the side latch could be fixed by slamming shut the window but not the bottom peg?
Where is the photos of the kitchen window? All the police have to do is release a photo showing the bottom latch unfixed!
Why did Taff say all windows were latched and secure? He even went outside to check the pantry window with the mesh on it!
Nah! Taff did his job allright,what more could he do? After checking that the house had been secured from inside,it was up to pathologists to rule out any foul play,which they did!
Alas,then the shenanigans began!

It's unlikely he did a fraction of what you claim. He had places to go and people to see -it may have been his day off?- so he must have been delighted to learn that JB had more or less solved the case without requiring much input from him.

[snow66!]

It's unlikely he did a fraction of what you claim. He had places to go and people to see -it may have been his day off?- so he must have been delighted to learn that JB had more or less solved the case without requiring much input from him.

Well,its what Taff said in his statement anyway Jane!
Besides there should be photographic evidence, where is it?

[Jane]

Well,its what Taff said in his statement anyway Jane!
Besides there should be photographic evidence, where is it?

It may well have been "what Taff said in his statement", but as most other statement givers have been accused of some sort of 'modification of truth', why should Taff's not be questioned? May explain the lack of photographic evidence?

[Hardy Boy]

[/b]

Two points HB. Firstly the way a Crime Scene is interpreted is critical. In an incident such as WHF where all the occupants were killed, the positioning of items used helps to working out what 'MAY' have happened. Primarily this is done by examining the placing of bullets and more importantly their casings.

It is possible by such positioning to manipulate the story to be told. Given the manipulation of and the withholding of documentation in this case I do not trust the findings in relation to bullets and casings. You yourself point out that SC was on top of a casing!!!?? This being the case all scenarios are to be approached with caution. Even the police cannot say with any degree of certainty what actually happened at what time and where. Only the victims knew.

Secondly you are being hard on Taff. He left the scene with the SIO, Harris to go to a meeting with the GPO.  He was under orders. There were other detectives around and about and they had all been briefed. They would have been contactable by radio if required.

I think your misinterpretation of what I mean about the Casing Bubo,  I know full well how important the crime scene is, what I’m saying, I’ve come under the impression due to how the investigation went, that the casings cannot now be trusted entirely, the critical ones around Sheila wasn’t how they were originally foiund by the raid team, there wasn’t one either side of Sheila’s body as per the picture, they were actually out of view and underneath Sheila, I will post the evidence tomorrow, and TAFF was aware of this.

My reasoning about TAFF, I think is justified, he was the lead detective, he called the shots regarding, no need for a full fingerprint search, no need for pathologist , no need for a search of the house etc., why do you think they removed him from the case?  He got the brunt of it at the press conference after the Court Case

[snow66!]

It may well have been "what Taff said in his statement", but as most other statement givers have been accused of some sort of 'modification of truth', why should Taff's not be questioned? May explain the lack of photographic evidence?

Do you mean no pictures of the windows may have been taken Jane?

[Hardy Boy]

I think your misinterpretation of what I mean about the Casing ILB, I know full well how important the crime scene is, what I’m saying, I’ve come under the impression due to how the investigation went, that the casings cannot now be trusted entirely, the critical ones around Sheila wasn’t how they were originally foiund by the raid team, there wasn’t one either side of Sheila’s body as per the picture, they were actually out of view and underneath Sheila, I will post the evidence tomorrow, and TAFF was aware of this.

My reasoning about TAFF, I think is justified, he was the lead detective, he called the shots regarding, no need for a full fingerprint search, no need for pathologist , no need for a search of the house etc., why do you think they removed him from the case?  He got the brunt of it at the press conference after the Court Case

This is the point that Woodcock who was showing Taffa round make's the point about the casings, they wasn't in the position as per the picture show's around Sheila, then look how Taff makes it know it was a murder suicide, that's him calling the shots at such an early stage and probably been on site half hour?  woodcock never saw him again after 9.30am

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4207.0;attach=31067;image

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4207.0;attach=31068;image

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4207.0;attach=31070;image

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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4207.0;attach=31075;image

In the last link, woodcock goes on to say, they found the cases when they moved the Body of Sheila, they were actually lying where the Head had been?  Now that could open up new theories as to how Sheila's body was positioned when she was either shot or shot herself?  I never knew about this, and that's why i said i don't trust the diagrams now?

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2081.0;attach=24080;image

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2081.0;attach=24081;image

[Bubo bubo]

I think your misinterpretation of what I mean about the Casing ILB, I know full well how important the crime scene is, what I’m saying, I’ve come under the impression due to how the investigation went, that the casings cannot now be trusted entirely, the critical ones around Sheila wasn’t how they were originally foiund by the raid team, there wasn’t one either side of Sheila’s body as per the picture, they were actually out of view and underneath Sheila, I will post the evidence tomorrow, and TAFF was aware of this.

My reasoning about TAFF, I think is justified, he was the lead detective, he called the shots regarding, no need for a full fingerprint search, no need for pathologist , no need for a search of the house etc., why do you think they removed him from the case?  He got the brunt of it at the press conference after the Court Case

Are you OK HB. Harris was the SIO at this stage not Taff. How could he get the brunt of it at the press conference? He died before the trial. Are you saying the police blamed their deceased and decorated colleague?

[Hardy Boy]

Are you OK HB. Harris was the SIO at this stage not Taff. How could he get the brunt of it at the press conference? He died before the trial. Are you saying the police blamed their deceased and decorated colleague?

Hi Bubo, yes i'm fine thank you, hope your still doing plenty of walking,    Anyway Taff was the senior investigating Officer, have a read at the press conference that took place after the Court case, and no i'm not saying that the Police are blaming their deceased and decorated colleague?  Where did you pull that one from, Stone did the opposite and defended him?  Taff was removed from the case, and Stone had to spend half the Press conferance defending TAFF, so no they did not throw him under the Bus, but if you like we will throw HARRIS and GIBBONS into it with TAFF and under the Bus

Anyway, have a read yourself and see who you think the Press are talking about and Stone is having to defend,  of Course other senior Police officers were shit, and we can throw all the Senior OFFICERS into the PERFUNCTORY, like i did say Senior OFFICERS.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,728.0.html

And then take into account, TAFF who has had a quick walk through of the Murder scene, Woodcock is escorting him, they then get to Sheila, and  Woodcock points out the things don't seem right to him.........There isn't any Bullet casings visible..........there's two shot's to Sheila, sheila is  EVER SO Clean. "OH it looks like a murder suicide to me" Was his reply?

You praise him all you want Bubo, you and Bambers Supporters, it's no skin of my nose, i say it as it is, and TAFF could be the reason why Bamber is locked up and has been for the Last 40 years..............he never ordered Pathology in, yet even though Woodcock is trying to tell him it's not what it seems, two shots under the chin, an ever so clean assasin, no bullet casings visible...........a good detective who was in charge of the investigation and crime scene, would have ordered, a Patholigist in and ballistics, he would have orderd a full search of the house and a full fingerprint examination, instead he did the complete opposite to what was required.

Then think about handing the keys back to the Family, the family would not have got their hands on the silencer if the Police had done their job in the first place and done a full house search, again ordered not to by TAFF

Taff instructed arrangements for a post Mortem later that Day, meaning, the Bodies were going to the morgue and removed from the crime scene, it was over as far as TAFF was concerened, MURDER SUICIDE.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19629;image

Ahd then Bubo, read the Last Paragraph, who is calling the shots here?  This is the reason Officers did not find the Silencer, they never searched the Guncupboard and it could be why Bamber has been locked up for 40 years, because it allowed the relatives to get their hands on it.

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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19629;image

It didn't matter who ever went to TAFF and raised their concerns, SJ, WOODCOCK, MILLER, BARLOW, CLARK they all got waved away from the Uncompetent senior crime investigating Officer.

[Cambridgecutie]

The casings for Sheila wasn't in this place in the photo when the TFG entered and when TAFF did his quick assesment, they wasn't visible to anyone, they were underneath Sheila, and without checking covered by her head/hair or in this region.  I don't trust the diagram's now, Cook even had to go back the next day and retrieve some casings when he found out at the Autopsy that there was 25 shots fired,  this was essex police at their finest. 


 Taff calling a murder suicide and walking away, Soco just treat it that way, I know it's not right and i'm not sticking up for anyone, but the senior investigating officers were very PERFUNCTORY and this fed through the ranks.

The casings around SC are where they would be expected.  There's nothing contentious about them afaik. 

The diagram is reliable because each casing was photographed and gone through in some detail at trial by way of DC Hammersley's trial testimony.

Nothing to do with DCI Jones.  The SOCO team captured all the relevant evidence by way of photographs and physical exhibits.

[Hardy Boy]

The casings around SC are where they would be expected.  There's nothing contentious about them afaik. 

The diagram is reliable because each casing was photographed and gone through in some detail at trial by way of DC Hammersley's trial testimony.

Nothing to do with DCI Jones.  The SOCO team captured all the relevant evidence by way of photographs and physical exhibits.

Read what Woodcock say's about the casings, you wasn't there and have no idea where the casings were first reported, your going on a drawaing that''s all.  Why would Woodcock make up such claim? If Woodcock is making such things up, there are Plenty of senior officers who could call him a liar.