Have you changed from innocent to guilty or vice versa and why?

[Adam]

Nothing wrong in AE thinking the blood in the silencer may have been rabbits blood. It was a rifle for shooting rabbits.

After tests it was confirmed it was human blood and the paint was from the aga.

[BarefootDanC]

The relatives (like the Bambers) were farmers and also possessed guns. David Boutflour had two Parker Hale silencers. Robert Boutflour had one Parker Hale silencer, Anthony Pargeter also had a Parker Hale silencer. So they were familiar with sound moderators.

They were given access to the crime scene and there was still a lot of blood at the scene when they were there unsupervised. Ann Eaton also took back home with her some of Sheila's bloodstained clothing. She had overhead Jeremy tell the police in his statement that he had left the rifle in the kitchen with the silencer off.  DC Clarke told Ann Eaton that Nevill's body was found by the AGA near the mantle shelf. Julie had also told Ann about Nevil's injuries after she identified the bodies in the mortuary.

Then when you read her statements and testimony it becomes rather apparent


Ann Eaton wrote in her September statement -

"We discussed the implication of how this silencer could be in the gun cupboard with blood and paint on it. Obviously if it was being alleged that somebody had had a brainstorm and shot dead four people they would surely not have stopped to remove the silencer, put it back in the gun cupboard, go back upstairs and shoot herself dead. Contact was made with the police about the discovery of the blood and paint stained silencer."

Ann Eaton told the Jury at Jeremy's trial the following

"At the time I did not know whether it was rabbit blood or what. and I thought the jewellery was the most important thing, turns out I was wrong."


And.

RIVLIN: How could you imagine that the blood at the end of the silencer might be a rabbits blood?
ANN EATON: I don't know.
RIVLIN: That is what you told the court. How could you imagine that it might be a rabbits blood?
ANN EATON: Jeremy said he had been shooting rabbits the night before.


The problem here is Jeremy said he did not get a chance to shoot the rabbits . Ann Eaton knew Jeremy said this and wrote this in her notes. Hence her answer "Jeremy said he had been shooting rabbits the night before." as for why she thought rabbit blood was on the silencer is clearly a lie.

Furthermore if she did indeed think it was rabbit blood and had no importance why did she report it to the police in the first place?

ARLIDGE: As a result of that being found, were police contacted?
ANN EATON: Yes, Witham Police
ARLIDGE: Do you know the date on which that took place?
ANN EATON: Saturday night.
ARLIDGE: That very evening?
ANN EATON: Yes.
MR. Justice Drake: (To the witness): Q: Who actually contacted them?
ANN EATON: It was probably me, but I cannot remember, but Witham Police were contacted.

These are substantial factual discrepancies.

Then in one of her statements she describes the blood on silencer as a "blob of jam". This was three days after the shooting and blood that has dried for that period of time would be black, dry and brittle.

I could go on and on. If you look at relatives actions in details and factor in the ballistic evidence that points away from the silencer every being on weapon that night. It becomes strikingly obvious that at least one relative committed a malicious act of contamination.

One problem with all of this is there was a large flake deep inside the moderator as well as other blood inside and outside whereas any blood which was at the crime scene was dried blood, so in order to plant blood from the scene into the moderator and outside it, someone would have to find a way of transferring blood from clothes into the moderator.

If they soaked the clothes in water, could they really use the blood dissolved in water to plant it into the moderator, fooling Fletcher into this it was a "back spatter" pattern?

[Bubo bubo]

One problem with all of this is there was a large flake deep inside the moderator as well as other blood inside and outside whereas any blood which was at the crime scene was dried blood, so in order to plant blood from the scene into the moderator and outside it, someone would have to find a way of transferring blood from clothes into the moderator.

If they soaked the clothes in water, could they really use the blood dissolved in water to plant it into the moderator, fooling Fletcher into this it was a "back spatter" pattern?

I think you will find that the flake was tiny and found between the first and second baffle plates. How come RWC did not find this loose flake when he dismantled the SM on21/07/85.

Of course there were 2 SM's. How could a loose flake not be found when RWC dismantled it on the 21/07/85. The fine mist was not visible to the naked eye.

The family 'overegged the pudding' in their description to give it legs. The blob and hair are pure fantasy. They never found it as described but handed in the family silencer 11/09/85 after JM had come forward and Ainsley was in the driving seat.

The blood got on the thread when the police fitted the silencer to the screw thread on the rifle which had SC's Blood on it from when she shot herself. This model of SM is designed to prevent leakage at the join.

The family had to say they found it on the 10/07/85 because the original SM (AP's) was taken to the lab on 13/07/85 so they had to give a date before this action and that is why there were no references to the SM in the earlier statements and notes made by the family.

[David1819]

One problem with all of this is there was a large flake deep inside the moderator as well as other blood inside and outside whereas any blood which was at the crime scene was dried blood, so in order to plant blood from the scene into the moderator and outside it, someone would have to find a way of transferring blood from clothes into the moderator.

If they soaked the clothes in water, could they really use the blood dissolved in water to plant it into the moderator, fooling Fletcher into this it was a "back spatter" pattern?

The silencer can be disassembled by twisting the knurled screw cap

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18746;image

Fletcher and the lab staff did not know the circumstance of how the silencer came into the investigation. They took it at face value and neither of them had seen backspatter in a silencer before to compare. The so called "backspatter pattern" is simply KM positive results on the first several baffle plates.

It also doesn't help that Glynis Howard inserted a damp cotton thread to soak up some of the blood a month before Fletcher examined it.

Fletchers testimony -

Q. Let us confine ourselves to the inside, as you did count to the fifth baffle, of which you are certain the blood went down to. It went as far as the fifth baffle did it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Which we are told is about 1/4".
A. Something of that order yes.

Glynis Howards testimony on what she done a month prior -


Q: Thank you. Now may I please ask you about the blood you found or saw inside the sound moderator?
A: Yes.
Q: You obviously had to remove it by some means didn't you?
A: Yes I did.
Q: Could you describe the means you used?
A: Yes, with the aid of a low-powered microscope and lenghts of sterile white cotton thread moistened with distilled water, I inserted with fine forceps the damp threads into the bore of the sound moderator. And soaked up the blood that was in there. I allowed the threads to dry before doing further tests.
Q: May I ask you how far into the sound moderator did you go with your threads? How far do you believe?
A: I took some blood which I could actually see. Just on that inner surface approximately 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. I didn't measure it at the time.

[snow66!]

The relatives (like the Bambers) were farmers and also possessed guns. David Boutflour had two Parker Hale silencers. Robert Boutflour had one Parker Hale silencer, Anthony Pargeter also had a Parker Hale silencer. So they were familiar with sound moderators.

They were given access to the crime scene and there was still a lot of blood at the scene when they were there unsupervised. Ann Eaton also took back home with her some of Sheila's bloodstained clothing. She had overhead Jeremy tell the police in his statement that he had left the rifle in the kitchen with the silencer off.  DC Clarke told Ann Eaton that Nevill's body was found by the AGA near the mantle shelf. Julie had also told Ann about Nevil's injuries after she identified the bodies in the mortuary.

Then when you read her statements and testimony it becomes rather apparent


Ann Eaton wrote in her September statement -

"We discussed the implication of how this silencer could be in the gun cupboard with blood and paint on it. Obviously if it was being alleged that somebody had had a brainstorm and shot dead four people they would surely not have stopped to remove the silencer, put it back in the gun cupboard, go back upstairs and shoot herself dead. Contact was made with the police about the discovery of the blood and paint stained silencer."

Ann Eaton told the Jury at Jeremy's trial the following

"At the time I did not know whether it was rabbit blood or what. and I thought the jewellery was the most important thing, turns out I was wrong."


And.

RIVLIN: How could you imagine that the blood at the end of the silencer might be a rabbits blood?
ANN EATON: I don't know.
RIVLIN: That is what you told the court. How could you imagine that it might be a rabbits blood?
ANN EATON: Jeremy said he had been shooting rabbits the night before.


The problem here is Jeremy said he did not get a chance to shoot the rabbits . Ann Eaton knew Jeremy said this and wrote this in her notes. Hence her answer "Jeremy said he had been shooting rabbits the night before." as for why she thought rabbit blood was on the silencer is clearly a lie.

Furthermore if she did indeed think it was rabbit blood and had no importance why did she report it to the police in the first place?

ARLIDGE: As a result of that being found, were police contacted?
ANN EATON: Yes, Witham Police
ARLIDGE: Do you know the date on which that took place?
ANN EATON: Saturday night.
ARLIDGE: That very evening?
ANN EATON: Yes.
MR. Justice Drake: (To the witness): Q: Who actually contacted them?
ANN EATON: It was probably me, but I cannot remember, but Witham Police were contacted.

These are substantial factual discrepancies.

Then in one of her statements she describes the blood on silencer as a "blob of jam". This was three days after the shooting and blood that has dried for that period of time would be black, dry and brittle.

I could go on and on. If you look at relatives actions in details and factor in the ballistic evidence that points away from the silencer every being on weapon that night. It becomes strikingly obvious that at least one relative committed a malicious act of contamination.

Good post Dave!

[BarefootDanC]

The silencer can be disassembled by twisting the knurled screw cap

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18746;image

Fletcher and the lab staff did not know the circumstance of how the silencer came into the investigation. They took it at face value and neither of them had seen backspatter in a silencer before to compare. The so called "backspatter pattern" is simply KM positive results on the first several baffle plates.

It also doesn't help that Glynis Howard inserted a damp cotton thread to soak up some of the blood a month before Fletcher examined it.

Fletchers testimony -

Q. Let us confine ourselves to the inside, as you did count to the fifth baffle, of which you are certain the blood went down to. It went as far as the fifth baffle did it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Which we are told is about 1/4".
A. Something of that order yes.

Glynis Howards testimony on what she done a month prior -


Q: Thank you. Now may I please ask you about the blood you found or saw inside the sound moderator?
A: Yes.
Q: You obviously had to remove it by some means didn't you?
A: Yes I did.
Q: Could you describe the means you used?
A: Yes, with the aid of a low-powered microscope and lenghts of sterile white cotton thread moistened with distilled water, I inserted with fine forceps the damp threads into the bore of the sound moderator. And soaked up the blood that was in there. I allowed the threads to dry before doing further tests.
Q: May I ask you how far into the sound moderator did you go with your threads? How far do you believe?
A: I took some blood which I could actually see. Just on that inner surface approximately 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. I didn't measure it at the time.

Thanks. I agree that it could be disassembled. My question is would be possible to get enough blood from Sheila's nightie or the carpet by soaking, to get the volume of blood which was found inside and outside. Not to mention, the scientists not being able to tell that the blood was rinsed out, dried and then deposited.

Also, is there any evidence at all that carpets or clothes etc were rinsed in this way ?

[Bubo bubo]

Thanks. I agree that it could be disassembled. My question is would be possible to get enough blood from Sheila's nightie or the carpet by soaking, to get the volume of blood which was found inside and outside. Not to mention, the scientists not being able to tell that the blood was rinsed out, dried and then deposited.

Also, is there any evidence at all that carpets or clothes etc were rinsed in this way ?

There are a few potential sources for the flake. AE was was given the run of WHF on the 09/08/85. She set about cleaning up and remaking the beds. There had been blood spots on the stairs (they were never tested to my knowledge) and she tells how the police told her and apologised saying they had done their best to clean them. What is to say that she may have found a spot of SC's blood on a carpet in her room.

The obvious source would be RB but this relies on the family being informed that RB's blood was a match with SC's.

Another potential source is RWC. Three blood samples were taken at autopsy as I understand it. One was sent to the lab and another was used in the toxicology testing. The the whereabouts and use of the third sample have been debated but I believe its use has not been determined.

There is one more potential source. MF was given a bullet by Taylor at the lab. It was in a receptacle with some blood and tissue belonging to SC. Since it seems that MF swapped the bullet in question (PV20) it is not impossible that there was a flake of dried blood on the bullet or in the container which was then passed to whoever was examining the blood in the SM and he could have claimed he found it when examining the SM.

[BarefootDanC]

The obvious source would be RB but this relies on the family being informed that RB's blood was a match with SC's.

Indeed, of course they wouldn't know that RB was a match.

[BarefootDanC]

There are a few potential sources for the flake. AE was was given the run of WHF on the 09/08/85. She set about cleaning up and remaking the beds. There had been blood spots on the stairs (they were never tested to my knowledge) and she tells how the police told her and apologised saying they had done their best to clean them. What is to say that she may have found a spot of SC's blood on a carpet in her room.

How on earth would she get blood from a carpet stain into and outside a sound moderator?? The blood inside it formed a large flake

[BarefootDanC]

Yes I was once convinced by Scipio that the silencer was on the gun when Sheila was shot.

What changed your mind?

[BarefootDanC]

Nothing wrong in AE thinking the blood in the silencer may have been rabbits blood. It was a rifle for shooting rabbits.

After tests it was confirmed it was human blood and the paint was from the aga.

Do you have access to documents which show the test(s) which they carried out to determine human species? If so, please could you share these with me?

A certain Bamber support on Facebook is claiming that the blood could be rabbit's blood!

[Hardy Boy]

I think you will find that the flake was tiny and found between the first and second baffle plates. How come RWC did not find this loose flake when he dismantled the SM on21/07/85.

Are you saying RWC dismantled the SM before the murders took place now and the Loose flake was inside?    Can you please post proof that RWC dismantled the silencer Please.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=606.0;attach=20610;image

[Bubo bubo]

How on earth would she get blood from a carpet stain into and outside a sound moderator?? The blood inside it formed a large flake

Please refrain from calling it a large flake. It was I believe around 5mm which is tiny. A lot would be dependent on the density of the carpets weave and depth. It could have formed a crust on the surface. it might even have been on a solid surface and just dried.

[BarefootDanC]

Please refrain from calling it a large flake. It was I believe around 5mm which is tiny. A lot would be dependent on the density of the carpets weave and depth. It could have formed a crust on the surface. it might even have been on a solid surface and just dried.

Do you think if you had blood on a carpet, you could successfully get the blood from the carpet to inside and outside a sound moderator?

[Hardy Boy]

Do you think you had blood on a carpet, you could successfully get the blood from the carpet to inside and outside a sound moderator?

Would there  be carpet fibres attached to any dried or wet blood and would be picked up on examination.