Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination

[Bubo bubo]

You're not as well up on the case as you profess. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/119648317/so-my-best-friend-turned-out-to-be-a-mass-murderer

Thanks for the info but hardly a reliable source who is using his JB relationship to sell stories to newspapers. I tend to stick to the evidence surrounding the case for my knowledge base rather than indulge in over the garden fence gossip which is not relevant. I leave that muck raking to people like yourself as you seem to be good at that. I remind you that I am still waiting for evidence of police officers who voted JB guilty before conviction. One of the many issues you drop and move to another topic when unable to provide an answer.

It does not mention a vote by police where they all put their hands up apart from Taff that they think JB did it. This was the point that Killingeve made and for which I wanted the evidence.

As part of a follow on question following an intervention by Jane, I then asked Jane to provide one officer other than SBJ who had suspected JB prior to conviction. She mentions two officers but offers no names. Anyone can make unevidenced answers like that.

You picked up the baton. I said show us the evidence that the lower ranks (plural) had suspected JB as you stated. You said what about the PC lay conversation.

The Myall note merely talks about PC Lay taking JB to a phone box to call JM. Is this what you mean because I can see no mention of PC lay saying he suspected JB and in his own statement dated  12/09/85 he just mentions taking JB to the phone box. Can you give me the page or the point you are making.

To date I have not been given the evidence Killingeve suggests exists but will not post and neither Jane or yourself have given the name of one officer other than SBJ who suspected JB before conviction. I do not doubt your sincerity but unless I am misunderstanding or missing your point I cannot see where you Jane or Killingeve has provided the evidence I requested.

[Adam]

I can only go by my own experience I'm not saying he never cycled, because it is quite possible to cycle the sea wall without lighting, iv'e rode hundreds of times in the dark without lights and on tracks, i mainly need heavy lighting because i'm under tree cover with no ambient lighting for assistance, out in the open the ambient light is different and i can easily turn my Lumens on the torch down?   To my mind  the light they gave out was very poor and did nothing other than signal your existence to drivers.  The one tiny bulb on the lamp was useless for lighting the way, if we talk about a torch that is different because you held the torch in a downward motion or could point it and offer it in different position offering a spot in front of your feet to see where you walk, cycle lights pointed outwards from the bike usually on a fixed bracket for awareness and the beam barely reached the floor?

Have also always said the open area which is the Sea Wall would provide plenty of light .

[Steve_uk]

Thanks for the info but hardly a reliable source who is using his JB relationship to sell stories to newspapers. I tend to stick to the evidence surrounding the case for my knowledge base rather than indulge in over the garden fence gossip which is not relevant. I leave that muck raking to people like yourself as you seem to be good at that. I remind you that I am still waiting for evidence of police officers who voted JB guilty before conviction. One of the many issues you drop and move to another topic when unable to provide an answer.

But you don't accept anything at face value, apart from when it comes from Jeremy's mouth. You've rubbished PC Bird, Ann Eaton, and now Brett Collins in the past few days. I believe it was DS Stan Jones who stated to DCI Thomas "Taff" Jones that "we're not happy with this bloke." Note the plural pronoun. I also gave you references to PC Lay's statement and Steve Myall's, which you also choose to ignore.

[Cambridgecutie]

I can only go by my own experience I'm not saying he never cycled, because it is quite possible to cycle the sea wall without lighting, iv'e rode hundreds of times in the dark without lights and on tracks, i mainly need heavy lighting because i'm under tree cover with no ambient lighting for assistance, out in the open the ambient light is different and i can easily turn my Lumens on the torch down?   To my mind  the light they gave out was very poor and did nothing other than signal your existence to drivers.  The one tiny bulb on the lamp was useless for lighting the way, if we talk about a torch that is different because you held the torch in a downward motion or could point it and offer it in different position offering a spot in front of your feet to see where you walk, cycle lights pointed outwards from the bike usually on a fixed bracket for awareness and the beam barely reached the floor?

I love that you may think that in 1985 it was a physical impossibility for a human being to cycle across 3 miles of flat Essex countryside in the dark.

Walking to Antarctica, no problem.  Climbing Everest, no problem.  Walk on the moon, no problem.

Cycle across 3 miles of Essex countryside in the dark on a warm moonlit summers night. NO!!! Absolutely not. Impossible.

You're funny!

[Bubo bubo]

But you don't accept anything at face value, apart from when it comes from Jeremy's mouth. You've rubbished PC Bird, Ann Eaton, and now Brett Collins in the past few days. I believe it was DS Stan Jones who stated to DCI Thomas "Taff" Jones that "we're not happy with this bloke." Note the plural pronoun. I also gave you references to PC Lay's statement and Steve Myall's, which you also choose to ignore.

But the word of SBJ is not evidenced and when did he say this and was he using 'we' to bolster his bias position. Neither of the statements you suggested from PC's Myall or Lay mention this as I have said in my response. It could be I missed it in which case I apologise in advance but expect you to give me the pages in which they support your argument
I have proved from written evidence that Bird lied to the COLP enquiry and posted my evidence. Ann Eaton has also been seen to lie and I have pointed to statements she has made which prove this. I am not going to repeat my findings. If you care to open your clearly closed mind and read my posts on these issues you will see my accusations are well founded in case documentation whether you like it or not.

[Adam]

I love that you may think that in 1985 it was a physical impossibility for a human being to cycle across 3 miles of flat Essex countryside in the dark.

Walking to Antarctica, no problem.  Climbing Everest, no problem.  Walk on the moon, no problem.

Cycle across 3 miles of Essex countryside in the dark on a warm moonlit summers night. NO!!! Absolutely not. Impossible.

You're funny!

His post is saying cycling the Sea Wall in the dark is very possible.

[Hardy Boy]

I love that you may think that in 1985 it was a physical impossibility for a human being to cycle across 3 miles of flat Essex countryside in the dark.

Walking to Antarctica, no problem.  Climbing Everest, no problem.  Walk on the moon, no problem.

Cycle across 3 miles of Essex countryside in the dark on a warm moonlit summers night. NO!!! Absolutely not. Impossible.

You're funny!

Where did i say it was impossible to cycle in the dark?  Did you read my post?  My point was/is he didn't need lights, the lights available at the time were useless anyway so. 

[Hardy Boy]

His post is saying cycling the Sea Wall in the dark is very possible.

Of course it's possible and he could have done it without lights, iv'e worked on the sea wall not far from this area and at night would often have to go on the beach to open a sluece gate to let water out into the sea depending on tide, the ambient light was enough for me.

[Cambridgecutie]

Where did i say it was impossible to cycle in the dark?  Did you read my post?  My point was/is he didn't need lights, the lights available at the time were useless anyway so.

I have no idea anymore what you're talking about.

You were banging on about how little light, lights in the 80's produced. Maybe you were talking about elephants flying upside down over London, I don't know anymore.

Lights in the 80's produced tons of light. tons, tons, tons....Just not as much as today.  And the batteries didn't last that long, but they lasted plenty for what Jeremy Bamber would have wanted them for.  We are talking about the 1980's and not the 1880's.  You do realise that don't you?

The point is....

If JB is the murderer, then it would be the easiest thing in the world to travel to WHF to GH, regardless of the route he took, sea wall or no sea wall.  There will be many ways to get cross country along a variety of country lanes/bridleways/byways/footpaths.  The whole of the UK is smothered with a mesh of tiny roads and footpaths.  You can get from anywhere to anywhere on them, without ever using a main road.

And if JB is the murderer, then it would be the easiest thing in the world for him to access the house through the windows rather than the doors.

Those two things are undisputable even for the most over the top of Jeremy Bamber's supporters.

But you are funny! 

[Adam]

Of course it's possible and he could have done it without lights, iv'e worked on the sea wall not far from this area and at night would often have to go on the beach to open a sluece gate to let water out into the sea depending on tide, the ambient light was enough for me.

Yes from the age of about 7 you realise you can get about in the dark due to a different kind of vision. 

The best dark is when there is street lighting. The worst is pitch black - being in a room at night without windows.

The Sea Wall was neither of these. The main advantage was it was in the open. Once your eyes acclimatise to the outside darkness there will be good vision.

[Hardy Boy]

I have no idea anymore what you're talking about.

You were banging on about how little light, lights in the 80's produced. Maybe you were talking about elephants flying upside down over London, I don't know anymore.

Lights in the 80's produced tons of light. tons, tons, tons....Just not as much as today.  And the batteries didn't last that long, but they lasted plenty for what Jeremy Bamber would have wanted them for.  We are talking about the 1980's and not the 1880's.  You do realise that don't you?

The point is....

If JB is the murderer, then it would be the easiest thing in the world to travel to WHF to GH, regardless of the route he took, sea wall or no sea wall.  There will be many ways to get cross country along a variety of country lanes/bridleways/byways/footpaths.  The whole of the UK is smothered with a mesh of tiny roads and footpaths.  You can get from anywhere to anywhere on them, without ever using a main road.

And if JB is the murderer, then it would be the easiest thing in the world for him to access the house through the windows rather than the doors.

Those two things are undisputable even for the most over the top of Jeremy Bamber's supporters.

But you are funny!

lights from the 80s produced tons and tons of lighting, they were either Dynamo offering low wattage or lamps witht the useless one bulb powered by the "D" battery The light they put out was yellowish and feeble and of no use.  Having said that, i agree yes he could have cycled any route he wanted with or without lights and yes i agree he could have used the windows as a means of entry and escape no problem. 

[Hardy Boy]

Yes from the age of about 7 you realise you can get about in the dark due to a different kind of vision. 

The best dark is when there is street lighting. The worst is pitch black - being in a room at night without windows.

The Sea Wall was neither of these. The main advantage was it was in the open. Once your eyes acclimatise to the outside darkness there will be good vision.

One of the biggest arguments has been that Bamber needed lighting to cycle at night and would have been seen, he didn't and the lighting available was useless anyway. 

[Hardy Boy]

You're not as well up on the case as you profess. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/119648317/so-my-best-friend-turned-out-to-be-a-mass-murderer

I will make exeptions for Bevan, Steve, him being a New York reporter, Neville as you know was a magistrate and not a high court Judge.......... Collins was introduced to Bamber's parents, and remembers his father, a retired high court judge, as being a very stern man.

[Cambridgecutie]

lights from the 80s produced tons and tons of lighting, they were either Dynamo offering low wattage or lamps witht the useless one bulb powered by the "D" battery The light they put out was yellowish and feeble and of no use.  Having said that, i agree yes he could have cycled any route he wanted with or without lights and yes i agree he could have used the windows as a means of entry and escape no problem.

I've just done some research, and Energizer and Duracell alkaline batteries were freely available in 1985. 

EverReady changed its name to Energizer in 1980.  The batteries we have today would have looked very similar to the batteries from 1985, and would have been alkaline (although the older technology was still available).

The bike lights that I was using in 2006 before upgrading to LED lights looked near identical in design to the ones that were available in the 1980's.  And the ones I was using in 2006 were more than adequate for any type of cycling.  The biggest problem was that the connecters went dodgy after a while.  That has never happened with LED lights.

Even I was thinking about lights from the 50's and 60's in my initial comment (and maybe earlier), even though I wasn't born then. I don't know why I thought lights were so basic in the 80's.  They weren't.

So anyway, in 1985 it was possible to go into Halfords and buy high quality lights for a bike for an affordable price, that could also be very safely used today.

[Adam]

One of the biggest arguments has been that Bamber needed lighting to cycle at night and would have been seen, he didn't and the lighting available was useless anyway.

Both those points are correct.