Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination

[Steve_uk]

I also have read them many years ago.

Having a re read some of his answers do come across as odd

Whose answers?

[ILB]

Whose answers?

Julie

[snow66!]

Honestly, I get the impression from Julie from reading her evidence particularly under cross that she's not playing with a full deck. Judge that as you may

That does cross one's mind ILB.When someone goes to the morgue to ask the departed what action to take,you do wonder.
Alas neither the departed victims nor the Lord God Almighty answered her.Selfish sods!
Hence Julie had to suffer with her conscience on her own for a month before she could take it no more.
Was she on tranquilisers from her doctor to help her cope at this time?
Did she talk to a priest to gain access to god?
Did she go to a clairevoyant to make contact with the victims? Why not,if she was in turmoil? She believed in God and the spirit world didn't she?
Apparently Jeremy told her all the details regarding the shooting on the evening after the murders and that was it.Thereafter she simply asked how he could live with himself apparently.

By her own admission Julie asked no further questions about the shooting at all that month,even though Jeremy bought newspapers every day and read them in front of her.Even then the case was not discussed apparently and Julie asked no further questions regarding JBs involvement.

Maybe this is because Julie was only aloud one bout of crying about the murders,one outburst and no more,that was all Jeremy allowed her.
No wonder she didn't go to the police sooner,she couldn't get enough answers from JB,besides,as you do,she thought the whole thing was simply a nightmare that would GO AWAY!

Her mind was also mixed up,she didn't seem to know whether to listen to her sub-conscious or her conscious mind.
Extraordinary evidence really.
Was the plan to baffle everyone?
I think Ken Dodd used the same strategy yo beat the tax man!

[Steve_uk]

That does cross one's mind ILB.When someone goes to the morgue to ask the departed what action to take,you do wonder.
Alas neither the departed victims nor the Lord God Almighty answered her.Selfish sods!
Hence Julie had to suffer with her conscience on her own for a month before she could take it no more.
Was she on tranquilisers from her doctor to help her cope at this time?
Did she talk to a priest to gain access to god?
Did she go to a clairevoyant to make contact with the victims? Why not,if she was in turmoil? She believed in God and the spirit world didn't she?
Apparently Jeremy told her all the details regarding the shooting on the evening after the murders and that was it.Thereafter she simply asked how he could live with himself apparently.

By her own admission Julie asked no further questions about the shooting at all that month,even though Jeremy bought newspapers every day and read them in front of her.Even then the case was not discussed apparently and Julie asked no further questions regarding JBs involvement.

Maybe this is because Julie was only aloud one bout of crying about the murders,one outburst and no more,that was all Jeremy allowed her.
No wonder she didn't go to the police sooner,she couldn't get enough answers from JB,besides,as you do,she thought the whole thing was simply a nightmare that would GO AWAY!

Her mind was also mixed up,she didn't seem to know whether to listen to her sub-conscious or her conscious mind.
Extraordinary evidence really.
Was the plan to baffle everyone?
I think Ken Dodd used the same strategy yo beat the tax man!

Not even George Carman QC could have got Jeremy off.

[ILB]

That does cross one's mind ILB.When someone goes to the morgue to ask the departed what action to take,you do wonder.
Alas neither the departed victims nor the Lord God Almighty answered her.Selfish sods!
Hence Julie had to suffer with her conscience on her own for a month before she could take it no more.
Was she on tranquilisers from her doctor to help her cope at this time?
Did she talk to a priest to gain access to god?
Did she go to a clairevoyant to make contact with the victims? Why not,if she was in turmoil? She believed in God and the spirit world didn't she?
Apparently Jeremy told her all the details regarding the shooting on the evening after the murders and that was it.Thereafter she simply asked how he could live with himself apparently.

By her own admission Julie asked no further questions about the shooting at all that month,even though Jeremy bought newspapers every day and read them in front of her.Even then the case was not discussed apparently and Julie asked no further questions regarding JBs involvement.

Maybe this is because Julie was only aloud one bout of crying about the murders,one outburst and no more,that was all Jeremy allowed her.
No wonder she didn't go to the police sooner,she couldn't get enough answers from JB,besides,as you do,she thought the whole thing was simply a nightmare that would GO AWAY!

Her mind was also mixed up,she didn't seem to know whether to listen to her sub-conscious or her conscious mind.
Extraordinary evidence really.
Was the plan to baffle everyone?
I think Ken Dodd used the same strategy yo beat the tax man!

Snow she almost seems comical in some of her responses. If it wasn't such a serious situation it would be almost laughable

[ILB]

Not even George Carman QC could have got Jeremy off.

Unfair biased summing up by the judge

The prosecutor himself is on record stating it!

[snow66!]

Snow she almost seems comical in some of her responses. If it wasn't such a serious situation it would be almost laughable

I wonder how many in that court room burst out laughing when Julie talked about JB catching rats with his bare hands? Thats like something out of a John Rambo movie,hilarious!

[Adam]

Unfair biased summing up by the judge

The prosecutor himself is on record stating it!

A judges summing up can support the prosecution or defence more. Depending on the evidence submitted at trial. He can't be 50/50 if 80% of the trial is incriminating evidence not disputed.

Bamber appealed the judge in 1989. It was dismissed.

What did you think was biased?

[Adam]

I wonder how many in that court room burst out laughing when Julie talked about JB catching rats with his bare hands? Thats like something out of a John Rambo movie,hilarious!

It was strangling rats.

[snow66!]

You see,the thing is,the police knew they had a problem with the fact that Julie didn't get in contact with them for a month,therefore they had to use fantasy and fiction rather than fact to explain this.
Hence,every half baked excuse had to be used.Fear of what JB and Matthew MacDonald could do was spoken of. Simiultaneously believing and not believing that JB was responsible was another,thats a good one! Who can argue with that?

Asking the departed for guidance which wasn't forth coming,another good one really,Julie didn't find out from the victims what happened so how could she know what action to take? And being a good christian she even prayed to the good Lord almighty for guidance,yet again like the victims he did not hear her plea.

In fact any and every lame excuse was used by Julie to explain why she did not go to the police for almost a month.Might the simple,obvious truth be, that she knew JB to be innocent and had absolutely no REASON whatsoever to go to the police about? No reason at all!
 
Not until the situation changed around the beginning of Sept and she was forced to,whether she wanted to or not!

[snow66!]

It was strangling rats.

You have to catch them first Adam,a cornered rat can jump four feet in the air at lightning speed.
Have you ever seen live rats Adam? Quite terrifying creatures,catch one with your bear hands and you will be lucky to keep all your fingers!
Of course JBs rats were high on marijuana,he must have fed it to them then waited patiently till they became subdued.That must be a first!

[ILB]

A judges summing up can support the prosecution or defence more. Depending on the evidence submitted at trial. He can't be 50/50 if 80% of the trial is incriminating evidence not disputed.

Bamber appealed the judge in 1989. It was dismissed.

What did you think was biased?

Didn't reference Bambers time in the witness box, his own evidence.

The main guy in the case!

[Adam]

You see,the thing is,the police knew they had a problem with the fact that Julie didn't get in contact with them for a month,therefore they had to use fantasy and fiction rather than fact to explain this.
Hence,every half baked excuse had to be used.Fear of what JB and Matthew MacDonald could do was spoken of. Simiultaneously believing and not believing that JB was responsible was another,thats a good one! Who can argue with that?

Asking the departed for guidance which wasn't forth coming,another good one really,Julie didn't find out from the victims what happened so how could she know what action to take? And being a good christian she even prayed to the good Lord almighty for guidance,yet again like the victims he did not hear her plea.

In fact any and every lame excuse was used by Julie to explain why she did not go to the police for almost a month.Might the simple,obvious truth be, that she knew JB to be innocent and had absolutely no REASON whatsoever to go to the police about? No reason at all!
 
Not until the situation changed around the beginning of Sept and she was forced to,whether she wanted to or not!

Why would she go to the police if she knew he was innocent?

The police would just show her evidence it was Sheila and charge her of wasting police time.

[snow66!]

Why would she go to the police if she knew he was innocent?

The police would just show her evidence it was Sheila and charge her of wasting police time.

Now that is being silly Adam,Stan Jones was praying that some evidence would appear to snare Bamber by then.
As it happened she was actually wasting police time.Lizzie and her friends probably spurned her on to go to the police and get revenge on Bamber.Not to see him charged with murder,simply to cause him a bit of hassle by repeating the Matthew story.
And that is indeed what happened,although both got hassle,Bamber and MacDonald.
Now it is worth remembering that at this stage Julie only accused JB of hiring MM to shoot the family.
Indeed she admitted in court that the murders were never mentioned again after 7th Aug when the Matthew story was told to her,and at no time did JB admit to shooting his family himself in the following weeks.
Therefore,after the Matthew story had been proven false ,both JB and MM should have been released without charge and that should have been an end to the matter.
However,by that time the relatives claims had convinced Stan that JB was indeed responsible and he wasn't going to dismiss Julie's evidence,he probably told her that there was other evidence that proved that Bamber was indeed guilty.
Indeed,the police may have convinced Julie that JB was actually guilty and that the plans to kill his family were real and not just spoken in jest.
Then Julie and the police spent almost a year thinking up a credible story to help convict Bamber which mainly consisted of things told to Julie that only the killer could know ,also confessions of being cold hearted and evil,and although these confessions in all likelyhood took place,they wer probably in relation to the break-up,made by JB to comfort Julie and help calm her down.
After all,she was in quite a state over the break-up,even promising JB that she wouldn't do anything silly.

The thing is,by the time Julie went to the police she had nothing to loose as far as Bamber was concerned,it was all over between them.She did however,along with Sue Battersby have a lot to gain by helping the police with agreeing to give evidence against Bamber.Indeed her whole future depended on the police dropping charges against her.

[Steve_uk]

Now that is being silly Adam,Stan Jones was praying that some evidence would appear to snare Bamber by then.
As it happened she was actually wasting police time.Lizzie and her friends probably spurned her on to go to the police and get revenge on Bamber.Not to see him charged with murder,simply to cause him a bit of hassle by repeating the Matthew story.
And that is indeed what happened,although both got hassle,Bamber and MacDonald.
Now it is worth remembering that at this stage Julie only accused JB of hiring MM to shoot the family.
Indeed she admitted in court that the murders were never mentioned again after 7th Aug when the Matthew story was told to her,and at no time did JB admit to shooting his family himself in the following weeks.
Therefore,after the Matthew story had been proven false ,both JB and MM should have been released without charge and that should have been an end to the matter.
However,by that time the relatives claims had convinced Stan that JB was indeed responsible and he wasn't going to dismiss Julie's evidence,he probably told her that there was other evidence that proved that Bamber was indeed guilty.
Indeed,the police may have convinced Julie that JB was actually guilty and that the plans to kill his family were real and not just spoken in jest.
Then Julie and the police spent almost a year thinking up a credible story to help convict Bamber which mainly consisted of things told to Julie that only the killer could know ,also confessions of being cold hearted and evil,and although these confessions in all likelyhood took place,they wer probably in relation to the break-up,made by JB to comfort Julie and help calm her down.
After all,she was in quite a state over the break-up,even promising JB that she wouldn't do anything silly.

The thing is,by the time Julie went to the police she had nothing to loose as far as Bamber was concerned,it was all over between them.She did however,along with Sue Battersby have a lot to gain by helping the police with agreeing to give evidence against Bamber.Indeed her whole future depended on the police dropping charges against her.

There was a confession at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath.