Author Topic: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??  (Read 1540 times)

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Offline BarefootDanC

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Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 additional documents to Jeremy in 2012 ??

Offline Roch

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2024, 07:12:PM »
Was this not the lever arch files that Simon McKay did not have time to go through?

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2024, 02:24:PM »
I don't know, but I suspect that he / his lawyers had this information a long time before 2012.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2024, 03:00:PM »
I don't know, but I suspect that he / his lawyers had this information a long time before 2012.

It is more complicated than that.  A vast amount of material was released on a very restricted basis around the time of the 2002 appeal but there was no time to go through it for that appeal.  It was only finally released to JB's team around 2012 and it has taken years years to go through it all.

 

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2024, 04:48:PM »
It is more complicated than that.  A vast amount of material was released on a very restricted basis around the time of the 2002 appeal but there was no time to go through it for that appeal.  It was only finally released to JB's team around 2012 and it has taken years years to go through it all.

That's interesting. Even if they didn't have time to go through it, they could request it anyway, surely? Or they could adjourn the appeal hearing. The appeal was granted in 2001 and heard late 2002, so they had well over a year to go through any material.

Do you know if there was any proof that Bamber's lawyers received the material in 2012 (and not before) ?

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2024, 07:49:PM »
That's interesting. Even if they didn't have time to go through it, they could request it anyway, surely? Or they could adjourn the appeal hearing. The appeal was granted in 2001 and heard late 2002, so they had well over a year to go through any material.

Do you know if there was any proof that Bamber's lawyers received the material in 2012 (and not before) ?

there was no possibility of the 2002 appeal being adjourned. 

I do know that the new material was not received until 2012.  I did have some direct involvement at that time. 
 

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2024, 08:01:PM »
there was no possibility of the 2002 appeal being adjourned. 

I do know that the new material was not received until 2012.  I did have some direct involvement at that time.

That's interesting, please tell me more. What let to all those documents suddenly being received? How do you know there was as many as 347,000. I might be wrong, but it seems to be an unfeasibly high number.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2024, 08:49:PM »
That's interesting, please tell me more. What let to all those documents suddenly being received? How do you know there was as many as 347,000. I might be wrong, but it seems to be an unfeasibly high number.

I do not know the exact number but I do know it was a vast number and it took years to sort, copy and then examine.  I have no reason to doubt the figure stated.


Offline Jane

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2024, 10:49:AM »
I do not know the exact number but I do know it was a vast number and it took years to sort, copy and then examine.  I have no reason to doubt the figure stated.


347,000?!!! I'm guessing that in amongst them will be the answers to some of the FAQs posted here? None making the slightest difference to the outcome of the case, all taking up time and manpower?

Offline Bill Robertson

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2024, 11:44:AM »
That's interesting, please tell me more. What let to all those documents suddenly being received? How do you know there was as many as 347,000. I might be wrong, but it seems to be an unfeasibly high number.
My understanding is that there were 347,000 individual pages. Still a huge number of documents overall but not 347,000 documents. Likewise, sometimes it said that there are 4 million documents involved in the case; I guess that means 4 million pages.
I do know that Essex Police supplied the pages completely in random order with multiple copies of the same witness statements, often with different dates on them, many undated and unsigned. It took 6 months just to put them in a sensible order. It then took years to work through them. Only then could a submission be made to the CCRC.
Julie’s going to Low Newton; remember to pack a toothbrush you lying toe rag, in my opinion

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2024, 09:03:PM »
My understanding is that there were 347,000 individual pages. Still a huge number of documents overall but not 347,000 documents. Likewise, sometimes it said that there are 4 million documents involved in the case; I guess that means 4 million pages.
I do know that Essex Police supplied the pages completely in random order with multiple copies of the same witness statements, often with different dates on them, many undated and unsigned. It took 6 months just to put them in a sensible order. It then took years to work through them. Only then could a submission be made to the CCRC.

What led to them suddenly all being released ?

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2024, 09:50:AM »
What led to them suddenly all being released ?

It is quite a complicated story and difficult to explain without going into some detailed background.  The documents were not released in 2012 by Essex Police or the DPP/CPS.  They were documents which had been released on a very restricted basis years before and it was only in 2012 that the view was taken that the restriction no longer applied.




Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2024, 10:00:AM »
My understanding is that there were 347,000 individual pages. Still a huge number of documents overall but not 347,000 documents. Likewise, sometimes it said that there are 4 million documents involved in the case; I guess that means 4 million pages.
I do know that Essex Police supplied the pages completely in random order with multiple copies of the same witness statements, often with different dates on them, many undated and unsigned. It took 6 months just to put them in a sensible order. It then took years to work through them. Only then could a submission be made to the CCRC.

Let's assume pages rather than documents: 347,000 pages newly disclosed and 4,000,000 pages in total.

347,000 pages would be nearly 1,000 pages per day for a year or nearly 1,500 pages per working day for a year

4,000,000 pages would be nearly 11,000 pages per day for a year or nearly 17,500 pager per working day for a year

These figures seem to me to be impossible!

A bit like the number of witness statements that we are told Julie Mugford made. I have been told 25+ witness statements - roughly one witness statement per fortnight, running up to the trial!

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2024, 10:02:AM »
It is quite a complicated story and difficult to explain without going into some detailed background.  The documents were not released in 2012 by Essex Police or the DPP/CPS.  They were documents which had been released on a very restricted basis years before and it was only in 2012 that the view was taken that the restriction no longer applied.

Thanks. I am very intrigued. Where can I find more information about this?

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Was there really a disclosure of 347,000 documents in 2012 ??
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2024, 10:12:AM »
Thanks. I am very intrigued. Where can I find more information about this?

I do not believe the full account of this has been made public but I think there are some references to it on the official JB websites.