Author Topic: At the trial, the defence knew the blood was a match for Robert Boutflour  (Read 1749 times)

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Online BarefootDanC

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The defence knew at trial that the blood group was a match for Robert Boutflour (and 8% of the population), but it couldn't have been Robert Boutflour's blood for several reasons:

1) The "back-splatter pattern" proved the blood got into the sound moderator from a contact shot.
2) Robert Boutflour would not have known about Sheila's blood group.
3) There was another witness to the finding of the sound moderator
4) There is some other evidence that the sound moderator was on the gun:
      (a) the paint on the end of the moderator
      (b) there was no blood in the barrel of the gun (which would be expected if the moderator was not on the gun)

Offline David1819

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The defence knew at trial that the blood group was a match for Robert Boutflour (and 8% of the population), but it couldn't have been Robert Boutflour's blood for several reasons:

1) The "back-splatter pattern" proved the blood got into the sound moderator from a contact shot.
2) Robert Boutflour would not have known about Sheila's blood group.
3) There was another witness to the finding of the sound moderator
4) There is some other evidence that the sound moderator was on the gun:
      (a) the paint on the end of the moderator
      (b) there was no blood in the barrel of the gun (which would be expected if the moderator was not on the gun)

If it is Robert Boutflour's blood in the silencer (which I doubt it is) it would be more likely that he felt human blood would suffice to incriminate Jeremy and that was it. It matching Sheila's was an 8% chance that fell in his favour.

With regards to your other points here is some of Malcolm Fletchers cross examination you might find interesting.

"Q. Are you familiar with the work of  Doctors Stephens and Allan? 
A. There is an article actually which I have a copy of from one of the journals, yes.
Q. You are familiar with it?
A.  I am familiar with it, yes.
Q. They are respectively the Chief Medical Examiner for the Coroners Office and Fellow in Forensic Pathology at San Francisco and Medical Examiner to the Coroners Office?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Respected authority?
A. Yes sir as far as I am aware.
Q. May I put to you a number of propositions and invite your observations on the propositions? Presumably you would agree with this proposition, that under certain circumstances blood droplets can be propelled backwards in a direction against the line of fire?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is what is known as back-spattering?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That phenomenon is the most commonly seen in contact gun-shot wounds to the head?
A. Yes sir.
Q. To the contact wound or very close?
A. That is correct, yes.


--------------------------------------------------------


Q. How much is the emission pressure reduced by the moderator?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Have you not tested it?
A. I don't have the equipment and facilities to do that.
Q. Have you sought others to test it for you?
A. No sir.
Q. It is rather important isn't it?
A. You obviously consider it so.
Q. Do you not as an expert?
A. The amount of reduction there is would have some effect on the possibility of back-spatter, but I wouldn't call it significant. 
Q. How do you know?
A.  Experience.
Q. With a .22, a silencer and back-spattering?
A. And with seeing   
Q. Is that right?
A. And with seeing a lot of other weapons  and ammunition fired, and their effects.
Q. I want to know about the .22, the moderator and back-spattering.
A. I have seen the effect of .22 back-spattering occasionally. I would say occasionally and not very often. 
Q. When did you last see that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Try.
A. I cannot remember. 
Q. 22, back-spattering, with a moderator, when have you seen that?
A. I can't recall having seen one before today.


--------------------------------------------------------

Q. May I recap for a moment?
A. Certainly.
Q. You have assented to the proposition that back-spattering can occur less commonly with wounds to the head.
A. Yes sir. 
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. That the .22 is the least likely candidate for a gun to produce back-spattering.
A. Yes
Q. Mr. Fletcher, you cannot, as an expert, consciously and reasonably assert, can you, that there was any more than a possibility of blood spattering from the wound on Sheila Caffell's neck?
A. A possibility certainly, and a good possibility. 
Q. A possibility.
A. A good possibility.
Q. How pray do you account for the absence of back-spattering from the two wounds at the head of the unfortunate Nicholas who received wounds to his head, the commonest area from which one gets back-spattering?
A. I don't know that there was not any back-spattering. As far as I can see there is no evidence of it."
 

Online BarefootDanC

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If it is Robert Boutflour's blood in the silencer (which I doubt it is) it would be more likely that he felt human blood would suffice to incriminate Jeremy and that was it. It matching Sheila's was an 8% chance that fell in his favour.

With regards to your other points here is some of Malcolm Fletchers cross examination you might find interesting.

"Q. Are you familiar with the work of  Doctors Stephens and Allan? 
A. There is an article actually which I have a copy of from one of the journals, yes.
Q. You are familiar with it?
A.  I am familiar with it, yes.
Q. They are respectively the Chief Medical Examiner for the Coroners Office and Fellow in Forensic Pathology at San Francisco and Medical Examiner to the Coroners Office?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Respected authority?
A. Yes sir as far as I am aware.
Q. May I put to you a number of propositions and invite your observations on the propositions? Presumably you would agree with this proposition, that under certain circumstances blood droplets can be propelled backwards in a direction against the line of fire?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is what is known as back-spattering?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That phenomenon is the most commonly seen in contact gun-shot wounds to the head?
A. Yes sir.
Q. To the contact wound or very close?
A. That is correct, yes.


--------------------------------------------------------


Q. How much is the emission pressure reduced by the moderator?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Have you not tested it?
A. I don't have the equipment and facilities to do that.
Q. Have you sought others to test it for you?
A. No sir.
Q. It is rather important isn't it?
A. You obviously consider it so.
Q. Do you not as an expert?
A. The amount of reduction there is would have some effect on the possibility of back-spatter, but I wouldn't call it significant. 
Q. How do you know?
A.  Experience.
Q. With a .22, a silencer and back-spattering?
A. And with seeing   
Q. Is that right?
A. And with seeing a lot of other weapons  and ammunition fired, and their effects.
Q. I want to know about the .22, the moderator and back-spattering.
A. I have seen the effect of .22 back-spattering occasionally. I would say occasionally and not very often. 
Q. When did you last see that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Try.
A. I cannot remember. 
Q. 22, back-spattering, with a moderator, when have you seen that?
A. I can't recall having seen one before today.


--------------------------------------------------------

Q. May I recap for a moment?
A. Certainly.
Q. You have assented to the proposition that back-spattering can occur less commonly with wounds to the head.
A. Yes sir. 
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. That the .22 is the least likely candidate for a gun to produce back-spattering.
A. Yes
Q. Mr. Fletcher, you cannot, as an expert, consciously and reasonably assert, can you, that there was any more than a possibility of blood spattering from the wound on Sheila Caffell's neck?
A. A possibility certainly, and a good possibility. 
Q. A possibility.
A. A good possibility.
Q. How pray do you account for the absence of back-spattering from the two wounds at the head of the unfortunate Nicholas who received wounds to his head, the commonest area from which one gets back-spattering?
A. I don't know that there was not any back-spattering. As far as I can see there is no evidence of it."


"If it is Robert Boutflour's blood in the silencer (which I doubt it is) it would be more likely that he felt human blood would suffice to incriminate Jeremy and that was it"

Do we agree that human blood incriminates Jeremy?

Thank you for posting a section from the cross-examination of Fletcher. Do you conclude that back-splattering occurred?

Offline Roch

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"If it is Robert Boutflour's blood in the silencer (which I doubt it is) it would be more likely that he felt human blood would suffice to incriminate Jeremy and that was it"

Do we agree that human blood incriminates Jeremy?

Thank you for posting a section from the cross-examination of Fletcher. Do you conclude that back-splattering occurred?

No from me. Fletcher did not conduct any tests to replicate. He simply got a theory from a book.

The blood was planted in the sound moderator.

Offline Cambridgecutie

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If it is Robert Boutflour's blood in the silencer (which I doubt it is) it would be more likely that he felt human blood would suffice to incriminate Jeremy and that was it. It matching Sheila's was an 8% chance that fell in his favour.

With regards to your other points here is some of Malcolm Fletchers cross examination you might find interesting.

"Q. Are you familiar with the work of  Doctors Stephens and Allan? 
A. There is an article actually which I have a copy of from one of the journals, yes.
Q. You are familiar with it?
A.  I am familiar with it, yes.
Q. They are respectively the Chief Medical Examiner for the Coroners Office and Fellow in Forensic Pathology at San Francisco and Medical Examiner to the Coroners Office?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Respected authority?
A. Yes sir as far as I am aware.
Q. May I put to you a number of propositions and invite your observations on the propositions? Presumably you would agree with this proposition, that under certain circumstances blood droplets can be propelled backwards in a direction against the line of fire?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is what is known as back-spattering?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That phenomenon is the most commonly seen in contact gun-shot wounds to the head?
A. Yes sir.
Q. To the contact wound or very close?
A. That is correct, yes.


--------------------------------------------------------


Q. How much is the emission pressure reduced by the moderator?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Have you not tested it?
A. I don't have the equipment and facilities to do that.
Q. Have you sought others to test it for you?
A. No sir.
Q. It is rather important isn't it?
A. You obviously consider it so.
Q. Do you not as an expert?
A. The amount of reduction there is would have some effect on the possibility of back-spatter, but I wouldn't call it significant. 
Q. How do you know?
A.  Experience.
Q. With a .22, a silencer and back-spattering?
A. And with seeing   
Q. Is that right?
A. And with seeing a lot of other weapons  and ammunition fired, and their effects.
Q. I want to know about the .22, the moderator and back-spattering.
A. I have seen the effect of .22 back-spattering occasionally. I would say occasionally and not very often. 
Q. When did you last see that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Try.
A. I cannot remember. 
Q. 22, back-spattering, with a moderator, when have you seen that?
A. I can't recall having seen one before today.


--------------------------------------------------------

Q. May I recap for a moment?
A. Certainly.
Q. You have assented to the proposition that back-spattering can occur less commonly with wounds to the head.
A. Yes sir. 
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. That the .22 is the least likely candidate for a gun to produce back-spattering.
A. Yes
Q. Mr. Fletcher, you cannot, as an expert, consciously and reasonably assert, can you, that there was any more than a possibility of blood spattering from the wound on Sheila Caffell's neck?
A. A possibility certainly, and a good possibility. 
Q. A possibility.
A. A good possibility.
Q. How pray do you account for the absence of back-spattering from the two wounds at the head of the unfortunate Nicholas who received wounds to his head, the commonest area from which one gets back-spattering?
A. I don't know that there was not any back-spattering. As far as I can see there is no evidence of it."


You have to remember that Malcolm Fletcher is under oath, he can't make stuff up just because he knows something similar happened a few years ago, maybe even 10 years ago, but he doesn't have the fine grained, specific details on him in that moment.

If he can't remember the specifics, then he can't be specific.

He would risk perjuring himself.   

Malcolm Fletcher would have had many experiences in a court room, being cross examined, so he knows not to get into an argument with the defense counsel, or get tied up in knots trying to answer questions for which he wasn't able to research thoroughly beforehand.

He would have had no idea that he was going to be asked about cases from his professional past, of which there may be over a thousand going back many years.  So the only choice in that situation is to say you can't remember, because that would be the truth.

It's quite clever from the defense counsel though, because it makes Malcom Fletcher look vague, even though he comes across as very assured in the work that he did in the case.

For the defense argument to hold any weight,  there would have to be scientific research to say categorically that it would be impossible for back spatter to occur for a .22 rifle with a silencer attached.  And back spatter from a .22 rifle with a silencer on must never have ever been observed in actual real world cases, ever.

If the above paragraph is true, then the defense would have a valid argument.  But they never got any where near that technical requirement with the dialog that you have published.

What I see is the defense trying to sew seeds of doubt in the minds of the jury.

Nearly 40 years have passed since this dialog took place, and scientific proof that back spatter cannot happen for a .22 rifle with a silencer on should exist now, if this were in fact true.


Patrick O'Connor, Barrister, Doughty Street Chambers: "It will have to be a slam dunk.  It will have to be something of a blockbuster piece of evidence to have a chance".

All goals from Lionesses Euro 2025:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQq5gnwGjs

Online BarefootDanC

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No from me. Fletcher did not conduct any tests to replicate. He simply got a theory from a book.

The blood was planted in the sound moderator.

Are you claiming that Fletcher didn't know what back-splatter was and how to identify it ??

Offline Rob_

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Are you claiming that Fletcher didn't know what back-splatter was and how to identify it ??

I think Fletcher makes himself look rather silly:

Q. I want to know about the .22, the moderator and back-spattering.
A. I have seen the effect of .22 back-spattering occasionally. I would say occasionally and not very often.
Q. When did you last see that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Try.
A. I cannot remember.
Q. 22, back-spattering, with a moderator, when have you seen that?
A. I can't recall having seen one before today.


To go into court knowing he is going to be asked about back spatter and not able to recall details about his past cases / experience is stupid to say the least.

Online BarefootDanC

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I think Fletcher makes himself look rather silly:

Q. I want to know about the .22, the moderator and back-spattering.
A. I have seen the effect of .22 back-spattering occasionally. I would say occasionally and not very often.
Q. When did you last see that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Try.
A. I cannot remember.
Q. 22, back-spattering, with a moderator, when have you seen that?
A. I can't recall having seen one before today.


To go into court knowing he is going to be asked about back spatter and not able to recall details about his past cases / experience is stupid to say the least.

Sounds like he is talking specifically about splatter from a .22 gun, and says he cannot remember the last time he saw one. But he has certainly seen one before and he mentions elsewhere that his department has ample experience of it.

Are you denying that there was back-splatter?

Offline Rob_

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Sounds like he is talking specifically about splatter from a .22 gun, and says he cannot remember the last time he saw one. But he has certainly seen one before and he mentions elsewhere that his department has ample experience of it.

Are you denying that there was back-splatter?

What do you mean I am denying there was back-spatter?

25 gun shots it should be painfully obvious if a moderator was on the gun, but there is no evidence from the wounds there was ever one on the rifle.

DB gives one statement where he says he saw the blood etc at WHF then in another it at Ann's house. No one can remember who initially called the police. It's a joke.

Online BarefootDanC

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What do you mean I am denying there was back-spatter?

25 gun shots it should be painfully obvious if a moderator was on the gun, but there is no evidence from the wounds there was ever one on the rifle.

DB gives one statement where he says he saw the blood etc at WHF then in another it at Ann's house. No one can remember who initially called the police. It's a joke.
What do you mean I am denying there was back-spatter?

25 gun shots it should be painfully obvious if a moderator was on the gun, but there is no evidence from the wounds there was ever one on the rifle.

DB gives one statement where he says he saw the blood etc at WHF then in another it at Ann's house. No one can remember who initially called the police. It's a joke.

Rob, let me re-phrase my question:

Fletcher said the blood in the silencer formed a back-splatter pattern. Did it form such a pattern, or not?

If not, why did he say this? And has Jeremy's supporters any expert opinion to the contrary?

Offline Rob_

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Rob, let me re-phrase my question:

Fletcher said the blood in the silencer formed a back-splatter pattern. Did it form such a pattern, or not?

If not, why did he say this? And has Jeremy's supporters any expert opinion to the contrary?

I was not aware there was a pattern of blood in the silencer?

If there was how would Fletcher know if this was due to back spatter as his experience of this seemed rather limited? and he had done no tests to my knowledge anyway?

If you can point me to more information I would be keen to read it.

Online BarefootDanC

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I was not aware there was a pattern of blood in the silencer?

If there was how would Fletcher know if this was due to back spatter as his experience of this seemed rather limited? and he had done no tests to my knowledge anyway?

If you can point me to more information I would be keen to read it.

Yes, there was a back-splatter pattern.

See Fletcher's cross examination by Lawson (defence barrister) here, especially pages 102 onwards:

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362440.html#msg362440

It wasn't "limited experience" he said "I already knew of this phenomenon. My own department who have been doing this work for approximately 40 years, and over that time the expertise of seeing these things has built up. It has been noted in the past.

Offline Rob_

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Yes, there was a back-splatter pattern.

See Fletcher's cross examination by Lawson (defence barrister) here, especially pages 102 onwards:

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362440.html#msg362440

It wasn't "limited experience" he said "I already knew of this phenomenon. My own department who have been doing this work for approximately 40 years, and over that time the expertise of seeing these things has built up. It has been noted in the past.

I have had a good read but cannot see anywhere where he talks about the pattern of blood caused by back spatter inside the moderator?

Do you know of any experts apart from Fletcher who looking at the wounds to Sheila have said a moderator was on the gun?


Offline Bill Robertson

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I have had a good read but cannot see anywhere where he talks about the pattern of blood caused by back spatter inside the moderator?
There isn’t any mention. How could anyone identify back spatter inside a silencer when there was allegedly a single flake of blood trapped between baffles 1 and 2 and allegedly more blood that petered out between baffles 2 and 5?

Offline David1819

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Rob, let me re-phrase my question:

Fletcher said the blood in the silencer formed a back-splatter pattern. Did it form such a pattern, or not?

If not, why did he say this? And has Jeremy's supporters any expert opinion to the contrary?

Because he took the silencer at face value and did not know its chain of custody.

Once DS Jones collected the silencer from oak farm from Peter Eaton, He then handed it DI Cook. Cook is on record saying he did not know where DS Jones got the silencer from. Hence it was origionally signed into the lab as SBJ/1.

The whole thing was handed over to them as a genuine find. Neither Hayward or Fletcher would have known the circumstances of its dubious origin.

Rob, let me re-phrase my question:

Fletcher said the blood in the silencer formed a back-splatter pattern. Did it form such a pattern, or not?

If not, why did he say this? And has Jeremy's supporters any expert opinion to the contrary?

Yes, the reports of Philip Boyce and Dr Fowler.