Israel Gaza War

[Bubo bubo]

I agree Roch and it's horrible mate, but what do you expect when a Terrorist group intentionally wipes out thousands of your family and then hides behind civillians just to Cowardly protect themselves from reprisals.  They've purposely dug thousands of tunnels to hide in, and not only that made their headquarters underneath the main hospital for this reason.  What do you do with this sort of Group, you have to get to them first Roch and it's them that have put the Civillians in the firing line hoping to garner support from the world.  Tell me what else they can do given the situation, how do you deal with an organisation hell bent on destoying your exsistance.  Don't forget, Israel have given plenty of warning what was coming and to evacuate the area, Hamas don't want people to evacuate and Hamas didn't give any warning when they attacked what was more blatatly deliberate than when Hamas purposely attacked the festival and butchered young teenagers at close quarters and young families in their homes, that was deliberate reprisal killings and over kill for what's happened in the past between the two Countries.

What would you do if someone knocked on your door and wipes out family members, would you go out and try and peacefully talk with a group hell bent on wiping your exsistance from the face of the Earth, or would you hit them with everything you had?  That's the Position now facing Israel.

Israel and the Middle East will know no peace until Israel and the Palestinians agree a long term solution. Whilst I have great sympathy for Israel and its right to exist the Palestinian people and their desire for a homeland too, has long been ignored.
The way Israel is conducting their campaign is bordering on genocide. I had imagined a more strategic approach to the campaign rather than what looks like 'Blitz Krieg'. Surely with all the sophisticated tech at their disposal a more humane approach should be taken. They told people to move South and then attacked in the South.

This is interesting.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

The populationof Israel is the same as London 9.5 million

[gringo]

Given the resent events. I expected that you would have sunken this low and you didn't disapoint.

     The testimony of Israeli survivors confirms this. The Hannibal directive is a doctrine of the IDF. That most of the deaths of civilians were caused by the IDF is a reality for you to grapple with. Calling people tankies doesn't change the facts which you attempt to hand wave away

https://citizenwatchreport.com/ravers-confirm-that-idf-killed-their-own-people-in-the-crossfire-then-blamed-it-on-hamas/

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=64047

    From the article above;

    Yasmin Porat, a survivor of the bloodshed at Kibbutz Be'eri, near the boundary with Gaza, says many Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli forces.

An Israeli woman who survived the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on 7 October says Israeli civilians were "undoubtedly" killed by their own security forces.

It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be'eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.
"They eliminated everyone, including the hostages," she told Israeli radio. "There was very, very heavy crossfire" and even tank shelling.



The woman, 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, said that prior to that, she and other civilians had been held by the Palestinians for several hours and treated "humanely." She had fled the nearby "Nova" rave.

A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh ("This Morning") hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating on social media.

[...] Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired.

It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature.

    There are many more reports and interviews directly with the survivors that confirm this. You keep your head buried. The world is sickened and horrified by the latest Zionist atrocities and lies.
    To be seen as sinking low by the Forum's resident apologist for any and all Israeli/IDF war crimes is a compliment. There is no lower than an apologist for the IDF.

   

[Hardy Boy]

Israel and the Middle East will know no peace until Israel and the Palestinians agree a long term solution. Whilst I have great sympathy for Israel and its right to exist the Palestinian people and their desire for a homeland too, has long been ignored.
The way Israel is conducting their campaign is bordering on genocide. I had imagined a more strategic approach to the campaign rather than what looks like 'Blitz Krieg'. Surely with all the sophisticated tech at their disposal a more humane approach should be taken. They told people to move South and then attacked in the South.

This is interesting.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

The populationof Israel is the same as London 9.5 million

I agree with what you are saying, something needs to be sorted out for Peace.  My post was directed at the butchery that took place on Oct 7th .  Precision bombing will always have casualties, how else do you get to an enemy that’s using human’s as  Shields and buried deep underground beneath an hospital, you’ve got to get there first, taking out strategic targets is what they’ve had to do, they’ve had to destroy missile launches that’s been placed near civilians, before sending in the ground troops.  I’m not sticking up for Israel, but I don’t think they were left any other choice.

[Bubo bubo]

I agree with what you are saying, something needs to be sorted out for Peace.  My post was directed at the butchery that took place on Oct 7th .  Precision bombing will always have casualties, how else do you get to an enemy that’s using human’s as  Shields and buried deep underground beneath an hospital, you’ve got to get there first, taking out strategic targets is what they’ve had to do, they’ve had to destroy missile launches that’s been placed near civilians, before sending in the ground troops.  I’m not sticking up for Israel, but I don’t think they were left any other choice.

The problem is Netanyahu. Because he failed to protect and because he faces court charges, it seems to me that they have lashed out in their response. Nothing would have changed if they had taken some time to formulate a more humane response, rather than immediately responding. This is exactly what Biden warned against and their current approach is hardly winning them friends but turning more people against them and highlighting the lack of concern they have for the bulk of the Palestinian population who are 'lumbered' with Hamas. It seems they value their own citizens lives as more important than those of Palestinians.

There was IMO no need to impose a siege like some latter day crusaders. Why did they not seek to do a deal about the release of the hostages, whilst developing their military aims. Why not start with a ground offensive, they have the weaponry and Hamas will have a limited response to the tanks and other armour at their disposal.

Given the nature of the potential battleground. They could have created a tented enclave in Israel and invited women and children to seek refuge prior to their attacks. The UN and others are well capable of assisting in such a scheme since they do this all the time when there are wars and natural disasters. This would all have taken time I know maybe a month or more but would be more palatable to those of a humanist approach to these matters.

The rush to vent their anger has created a human tragedy and heightened the risk of a regional catasrophe and a widening of the conflict.

[Hardy Boy]

The problem is Netanyahu. Because he failed to protect and because he faces court charges, it seems to me that they have lashed out in their response. Nothing would have changed if they had taken some time to formulate a more humane response, rather than immediately responding. This is exactly what Biden warned against and their current approach is hardly winning them friends but turning more people against them and highlighting the lack of concern they have for the bulk of the Palestinian population who are 'lumbered' with Hamas. It seems they value their own citizens lives as more important than those of Palestinians.

There was IMO no need to impose a siege like some latter day crusaders. Why did they not seek to do a deal about the release of the hostages, whilst developing their military aims. Why not start with a ground offensive, they have the weaponry and Hamas will have a limited response to the tanks and other armour at their disposal.

Given the nature of the potential battleground. They could have created a tented enclave in Israel and invited women and children to seek refuge prior to their attacks. The UN and others are well capable of assisting in such a scheme since they do this all the time when there are wars and natural disasters. This would all have taken time I know maybe a month or more but would be more palatable to those of a humanist approach to these matters.

The rush to vent their anger has created a human tragedy and heightened the risk of a regional catasrophe and a widening of the conflict.

I don’t think Hamas would want women and Children to leave Bubo,  the woman and Children are there to protect them.  You cannot give months of notice before an attack, you make it harder for yourself and let the enemy rearm?  We seem to be accepting it’s ok for Hamas to fire 1000s of rockets into Israel with disregard for Human life and no precision bombing except to hit civilian population and not play by the rules, but Israel has to play it by the book?

[gringo]

I don’t think Hamas would want women and Children to leave Bubo,  the woman and Children are there to protect them.  You cannot give months of notice before an attack, you make it harder for yourself and let the enemy rearm?  We seem to be accepting it’s ok for Hamas to fire 1000s of rockets into Israel with disregard for Human life and no precision bombing except to hit civilian population and not play by the rules, but Israel has to play it by the book?

    The idea that the residents of Gaza who are confined to an area 25 miles in length and only 5 miles wide, their "borders" controlled by the IDF are being used as Human shields by Hamas rather than brutally and indiscriminately targeted by the IDF is a misrepresentation and twisting of the facts, with all respect HB. The area around the Gaza open air concentration camp is covered in what are euphemistically called, the "illegal settlements"; a sobriquet that does no justice to the brutality and humiliation daily visited on the real owners of that land. Zionist and fanatical settlers come and claim the land, evict the Palestinians and bulldoze their homes all with the backing and support of the Israeli government. This goes on to this day. Those people, mostly white Eastern European Jews, have zero legitimate claim to this illegally settled land. Israel by encouraging and sponsoring this demonstrate their unwillingness to settle the issue.
     
     

[Hardy Boy]

    The idea that the residents of Gaza who are confined to an area 25 miles in length and only 5 miles wide, their "borders" controlled by the IDF are being used as Human shields by Hamas rather than brutally and indiscriminately targeted by the IDF is a misrepresentation and twisting of the facts, with all respect HB. The area around the Gaza open air concentration camp is covered in what are euphemistically called, the "illegal settlements"; a sobriquet that does no justice to the brutality and humiliation daily visited on the real owners of that land. Zionist and fanatical settlers come and claim the land, evict the Palestinians and bulldoze their homes all with the backing and support of the Israeli government. This goes on to this day. Those people, mostly white Eastern European Jews, have zero legitimate claim to this illegally settled land. Israel by encouraging and sponsoring this demonstrate their unwillingness to settle the issue.
     
   

Sorry Gringo, what I mean while ever they, women and children are kept in Gaza it helps to protect the Hamas, Bubo has the idea to let all the women and children leave, Israel would just flatten the Hamas that was left and it would be easy for them, while ever the Woman and Children are still there, it is harder to strike without innocent casualties if that makes sense.  Obviously you have a lot more knowledge on past disputes and the background of the conflict, and I respect that and i know the suffering that the Palestine’s have had in the past, but I don’t know any other way that Israel could respond any differently, there will have to be some peace process after this war. I’m out of action for a while I’m using my phone 👍

[David1819]

     The testimony of Israeli survivors confirms this. The Hannibal directive is a doctrine of the IDF. That most of the deaths of civilians were caused by the IDF is a reality for you to grapple with. Calling people tankies doesn't change the facts which you attempt to hand wave away

https://citizenwatchreport.com/ravers-confirm-that-idf-killed-their-own-people-in-the-crossfire-then-blamed-it-on-hamas/

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=64047

    From the article above;

    Yasmin Porat, a survivor of the bloodshed at Kibbutz Be'eri, near the boundary with Gaza, says many Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli forces.

An Israeli woman who survived the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on 7 October says Israeli civilians were "undoubtedly" killed by their own security forces.

It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be'eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.
"They eliminated everyone, including the hostages," she told Israeli radio. "There was very, very heavy crossfire" and even tank shelling.



The woman, 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, said that prior to that, she and other civilians had been held by the Palestinians for several hours and treated "humanely." She had fled the nearby "Nova" rave.

A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh ("This Morning") hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating on social media.

[...] Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired.

It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature.

    There are many more reports and interviews directly with the survivors that confirm this. You keep your head buried. The world is sickened and horrified by the latest Zionist atrocities and lies.
    To be seen as sinking low by the Forum's resident apologist for any and all Israeli/IDF war crimes is a compliment. There is no lower than an apologist for the IDF.

   

Spliced transcipts taken out of context from one witness does not negate all witnesses that claimed otherwise. Neither does it negate all the CCTV, bodycam and dashcam footage of Hamas committing the attrociticies.

But I guess in your tankie fantasy world, the footage below are all IDF soilders dressed in Hamas unifiorms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFDI63yvNQ

[David1819]

Absolutly Horrible David, i cannot get that poor Girl out of my head, nothing justifies what they did and no one can excuse this Planned and Provoked attack.  Iv'e been to Israel once just before Covid and something had kicked off then and we couldn't go near the Gaza strip or West Bank,  i don't know what else people would expect from their Government when this sort of terorist attack happens.  They've poked the Hornets nest big time and they are going to regret it, People forget that Israel are a major force with Nuclear capabilities, i think they have something like 400 warheads, it's enough to blow the Middle East to oblivion........I think they were caught off guard big time and that has made it worse for any Leader of a Country, they will make sure that this will not happen again.

I agree. What on earth did this poor dog do to deserve this?

https://www.timesnownews.com/videos/viral-videos/israel-hamas-war-terrorists-shoot-dog-before-arson-in-bodycam-video-video-104334333

[David1819]

Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad: We Will Repeat the October 7 Attack Again Until Israel Is Annihilated

https://youtu.be/mPWOvwG4_x4?si=Kf77vdGwYuztivPb&t=13

[nugnug]

its 2 genicides not one  theres a ewish genocide being carrie out by isreal https://off-guardian.org/2023/10/31/netanyahus-two-genocides/

[Bubo bubo]

I don’t think Hamas would want women and Children to leave Bubo,  the woman and Children are there to protect them.  You cannot give months of notice before an attack, you make it harder for yourself and let the enemy rearm?  We seem to be accepting it’s ok for Hamas to fire 1000s of rockets into Israel with disregard for Human life and no precision bombing except to hit civilian population and not play by the rules, but Israel has to play it by the book?

The reality is that very few Israelis have been killed by rockets in the last 56 years (1967) in that time 80,000 Palestinians have been killed (quote from Hanan Ashrawi former PLO negotiator). The warning systems and shelters together with the iron dome have kept them safe. In the last 4 weeks over 200 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by the IDF and Settlers..

You can give notice. Your point is dismantled by the way the First Gulf war was conducted when Sadam invaded Kuwait. It took weeks to assemble the coalition forces. The whole of the Kuwaiti population were in effect hostages.

Tonight it has been reported that the Camp that was bombed yesterday (Jabalia) has been attacked again and experts say it might be a war crime.

I have no objection to Israel targeting Hamas and for the good of mankind to see the back of them. But they need to show that they are better than them rather than unleashing their own form of barbarism.

The crude retaliation which is about anger and revenge should be replaced by a more considered approach to the problem. I notice that even now there is no humility or willingness to engage in a realistic peace process. I know they are hurting but their lack of consideration towards the Palestinians has spawned a number of anti-Semitic ruthless bodies of which Hamas is but one of the latest varieties.

The early settlers after the formation of Israel wanted a different kind of country. Over the years an influx of right wing land grabbling settlers has destroyed that vision and created a poisonous atmosphere that lacks any sense of entitlement for the Palestinian's. Thousands are dispossessed and hundreds of thousands have sought refuge in neighbouring countries creating difficulties for these poorer neighbours.

Until the Palestinians are given their rightful place in their land to live in peace with the Israeli's the cycle of violence will continue and more lives will be slaughtered on both sides.

[ngb1066]

HB I feel what we are witnessing is another Lidice, another Oradour Sur Glane, another Sebrinica. These are reprisal killings being made against a civilian population. There are babies and toddlers being bombed to pieces, flung off concrete walls and buried under rubble. 

Sorry but I feel we are witnessing deliberate reprisal killings. The ratio of deaths is about 8:1 already.

I agree Roch.

[ngb1066]

    The idea that the residents of Gaza who are confined to an area 25 miles in length and only 5 miles wide, their "borders" controlled by the IDF are being used as Human shields by Hamas rather than brutally and indiscriminately targeted by the IDF is a misrepresentation and twisting of the facts, with all respect HB. The area around the Gaza open air concentration camp is covered in what are euphemistically called, the "illegal settlements"; a sobriquet that does no justice to the brutality and humiliation daily visited on the real owners of that land. Zionist and fanatical settlers come and claim the land, evict the Palestinians and bulldoze their homes all with the backing and support of the Israeli government. This goes on to this day. Those people, mostly white Eastern European Jews, have zero legitimate claim to this illegally settled land. Israel by encouraging and sponsoring this demonstrate their unwillingness to settle the issue.     
 

All very true. 

[gringo]

Spliced transcipts taken out of context from one witness does not negate all witnesses that claimed otherwise. Neither does it negate all the CCTV, bodycam and dashcam footage of Hamas committing the attrociticies.

But I guess in your tankie fantasy world, the footage below are all IDF soilders dressed in Hamas unifiorms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFDI63yvNQ

   None of that footage supports the Israeli/IDF version of events. The interview can be heard in its entirety and your splicing accusations are nonsense. It was on Israeli radio. It is documented that that Israel lied about many things. 40 beheaded babies as an example; splashed all over MSM headlines, western government officials repeating the accusation. That claim since retracted by the Whitehouse and everyone else relying as it did on the testimony of one IDF soldier. No names, no funerals. The massacred civilians is also reasonably disputed.
     That is the difference between Israeli and Palestinian alleged atrocities. Israeli atrocities are undisputed matters of record agreed by all and not denied by Israel. The claims of Hamas beheading babies, using hospitals as bases etc; we only have the word of the IDF on this which is worth less than nothing. Even if true, which I doubt, it remains a war crime. Announced in advance, such is the impunity of Israel. Would anyone have the same attitude if Iran, Russia or anyone else did this with such poor reasoning. If you wouldn't apply those same standards elsewhere, then you shouldn't apply them anywhere.
     Israel are a criminal terror state, Palestinians are denied even statehood. Israel openly directly target journalists, medical workers, women and children and have done so since 1948. Everything and anything  done to resist this is legitimate resistance.