Author Topic: Justice for Jeremy  (Read 7035 times)

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Offline JackieD

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2020, 09:15:PM »







I still think Jeremy did this, but with the important rider that I consider the convictions unsafe.

I don't believe Jeremy was framed by the police.  They thought he was guilty and still do.  They and the DPP/CPS cut corners to secure the convictions, and continue to do so, and that is wrong, but it does not follow that they are intentionally persecuting an innocent man - which is a completely different thing.

My reasons for thinking Jeremy guilty?  I have about 10 reasons,  and here are some of them taken from a previous post of mine (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10319.0.html):

1. Sheila is shot at two significantly different angles.  If she killed herself, it's likely in my view that the triangulation of the two shots would be much smaller, with the angles much closer.  (The fact she is shot twice is not necessarily in itself very suspicious, but is obviously of related interest - if she shot herself twice, surely the shots would show a smaller triangulation with similar angles of fire?).

2. Sheila is shot in the neck/throat region.  If she killed herself, the shots are more likely to have been intra-oral.

3. The broad time bracket of Jeremy’s calls.  I’m not concerned here with the exact timing of the calls or who he called first or whatever.  It’s not very reasonable to take issue over that.  The point is more that Jeremy is alerting the authorities at roughly between 3.00 a.m. to 3.40 a.m., which ties in with Jeremy as the killer rather than Sheila.  For various reasons I won’t labour here, a murderer would kill the family between roughly 1.30 a.m. to 2.30 a.m., and if the plan is to stage a call from Nevill and ring the police, he would need to be done by about 2.45 a.m. so as to return to Goldhanger.  I think Sheila would have acted earlier, probably before everybody was in bed, and even if we allow for some overlap in hypothetical timings, the calls from Nevill to Jeremy and thence from Jeremy to the police should have been earlier than the rough 3.00 a.m. to 3.40 a.m. window if Sheila really did this.

4. The 3 a.m./3.15 a.m./3.30 a.m. call to Julie.  Whatever precise time the call was made, the point is this: I simply refuse to believe that this call was not pre-arranged with Julie.  I cannot prove it, but it is just unbelievable to me.  Sorry Julie, but I don't buy the Little Red Riding Hood act.  I think you are inextricably tied to Jeremy in this.  Furthermore, any doubt about the circumstances of that call leads us back to doubt about Jeremy's claim of a call from Nevill.

 

A couple more reasons:

5. Fingerprint evidence.  If Sheila killed herself, there should be clear prints of hers on the rifle.  This was something I noticed previously, and coincidentally, it has been discussed today on a different thread. 

6.  The 'big picture'/overall plausibility.  The big picture for me points more to Jeremy than Sheila.  This is an intuitive point, but an entire book could be written on it because, as well as intuition, we are venturing into complex and deeply-contested areas of knowledge and scholarship: especially the psychology of child-rearing, adolescent development, masculinity and male pride, sexuality, human motivations, love, hate and so on.  At the root of this there is a cold calculation: who is more likely to kill those twins?  Jeremy or Sheila?  Actually, you could argue it either way.  You could say Sheila is more likely to do it because they are her sons.  Equally, you could argue Sheila is unlikely to do it because they are her sons, leaving Jeremy in the frame by default.  Take your pick.  It's guesswork.

My guess is that he did it, for a host of psychological reasons I won't go into now because it would take too long.  I will mention only one: Nicholas and Daniel were Sheila's achievement and they were not a practical burden on her, thus the psychological drive to kill them that is sometimes seen in disturbed mothers may not have been there with Sheila.  The possibility cannot be excluded, but it seems unlikely.  This is one of the reasons why the 'big picture' of Sheila as the killer doesn't quite cohere, for me.  On the other hand, maybe Sheila wanted to see more of the boys and also get back with Colin, and the belief that this was slipping out of her grasp may have driven her to kill them.  We don't know.  It's guesswork.

My problem is that I could never stand up, point to Jeremy and say: 'Yes, he did it'.  The evidence isn't strong enough.  The verdict must be Not Guilty.

4. The 3 a.m./3.15 a.m./3.30 a.m. call to Julie.  Whatever precise time the call was made, the point is this: I simply refuse to believe that this call was not pre-arranged with Julie.  I cannot prove it, but it is just unbelievable to me.  Sorry Julie, but I don't buy the Little Red Riding Hood act.  I think you are inextricably tied to Jeremy in this.  Furthermore, any doubt about the circumstances of that call leads us back to doubt about Jeremy's claim of a call from Nevill.

I don’t understand your position on this point at all.

Put Jeremy in an innocent position and this has happened the way he said with the phone call from Neville wouldn’t you expect him to call someone, anyone???
Who exactly could he ring? He had no one??
He worked on the farm and shit relatives. I am sure the police said he needed to call or get in touch with a relative?

If it happened to me I would phone a friend or relative
He didn’t have an option only Julie

Also you have mentioned in posts that Jeremy was clever or intelligent and I totally disagree.
I doubt if he could plan a picnic let alone a murder and set up.
Look at his actions after the murders. Stupid. Look at him in the witness box stupid.
Look at the way he trusts the OCT stupid.
Mark Williams Thomas wanted to do a series, the OCT upset Mark.
Jeremy did nothing. Stupid. And I have been disgusted how Ngb has been treated by the OCT (he had a criminal barrister on tap at the end of the phone)
Jeremy did nothing stupid
I asked him a million things and he is just a puppet for the OCT

I actually think they love the drama of him being locked up

There is nothing clever or intelligent about Jeremy unless you were in prison with him and know him Better than me

If he had any intelligence at all he would not have been found guilty at trial or he would have won an appeal by now
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 09:31:PM by JackieD »
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2020, 10:38:AM »
Your last sentence is such an anti-climax. You make a good case with the timing of the murder for Jeremy to be the culprit. But your weakness is human relationships, getting both the Julie and Jeremy and the Sheila and Colin dynamic wrong.

Your weakness, Steve, is that you are connected to Julie and you are therefore biased, and you are not being honest and transparent with us.  You have a vested interest in diverting and deterring questions and inquiries about Julie's involvement.

As for Sheila and Colin: Sheila wanted to get back with Colin.  Colin did not want to get back with Sheila (despite claiming the opposite when he was interviewed post-trial).  Sheila was overcome by life and lonely.  Etc., etc., etc.

guest29835

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2020, 03:20:PM »
4. The 3 a.m./3.15 a.m./3.30 a.m. call to Julie.  Whatever precise time the call was made, the point is this: I simply refuse to believe that this call was not pre-arranged with Julie.  I cannot prove it, but it is just unbelievable to me.  Sorry Julie, but I don't buy the Little Red Riding Hood act.  I think you are inextricably tied to Jeremy in this.  Furthermore, any doubt about the circumstances of that call leads us back to doubt about Jeremy's claim of a call from Nevill.

I don’t understand your position on this point at all.

Put Jeremy in an innocent position and this has happened the way he said with the phone call from Neville wouldn’t you expect him to call someone, anyone???
Who exactly could he ring? He had no one??
He worked on the farm and shit relatives. I am sure the police said he needed to call or get in touch with a relative?

If it happened to me I would phone a friend or relative
He didn’t have an option only Julie

Also you have mentioned in posts that Jeremy was clever or intelligent and I totally disagree.
I doubt if he could plan a picnic let alone a murder and set up.
Look at his actions after the murders. Stupid. Look at him in the witness box stupid.
Look at the way he trusts the OCT stupid.
Mark Williams Thomas wanted to do a series, the OCT upset Mark.
Jeremy did nothing. Stupid. And I have been disgusted how Ngb has been treated by the OCT (he had a criminal barrister on tap at the end of the phone)
Jeremy did nothing stupid
I asked him a million things and he is just a puppet for the OCT

I actually think they love the drama of him being locked up

There is nothing clever or intelligent about Jeremy unless you were in prison with him and know him Better than me

If he had any intelligence at all he would not have been found guilty at trial or he would have won an appeal by now

I'm not sure I agree with you about Jeremy's intelligence.  I'm not necessarily proposing that he was a candidate for Mensa, but he was bright enough.  He was an A-level maths student at one point, which tells me he wasn't exactly thick.  Nowadays, he'd probably be putting in a UCAS application for a technical course at Brunel or Loughborough, or perhaps a farming management degree at Cirencester

However, I do take the point that there is an unambiguous/ambiguous paradox in the Nevill-to-Jeremy part of the phone calls.

Nevill's message to Jeremy is unambiguous.

But the import/consequences of what Nevill is saying is left rather ambiguous and open for Jeremy.

Assuming Jeremy is being truthful, one can understand why he would be a bit confused in that situation, and he might ring his girlfriend and say: 'What do you think?'  And she might reply in terms of: 'Don't be so daft and go back to sleep'.  She would say that because Jeremy is a joker/teaser [very much like I am - it's the sort of thing I would do as a joke].

And I can also, just about, understand why he rang the local police rather than 999.  He doesn't want to make a fool of myself, there's the ambiguity of it, so he rings the local police in the hope they'll go round and take a look.  However, as the call with P.C. West progresses, the seriousness of it all dawns on him and he starts to panic.

All this is plausible, hence Not Guilty.

But, for me, I really can't get over the feeling there is something suspect about that call to Julie in the early hours of the morning.  It's just suspicion and gut feeling on my part.  I can't say it's more than that, but I think Jeremy and Julie were tied into this.  However, I don't know this and I may be wrong.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2020, 03:41:PM »
Thank you for your detailed response as usual. I suppose that’s why I wanted you to write to Jeremy to see what you thought yourself.
There are so many reasons I believe Jeremy is not very bright or streetwise and when it’s discussed on here about timings and phone calls and bike rides and moving telephones and staged bodies I really believe he couldn’t pull it off.
I think he had a pretty charmed life (although he wasn’t old enough to enjoy it) and I have not read or seen anything that bad that would make him plan the murders.
I think it’s clear June deep down adored Jeremy and I’m sure if he had said I want to go travelling to Australia for another year his parents would probably
Have funded it. I accept he could be responsible but everything I have learnt about Jeremy I believe it was a tragic accident

This not very bright boy was like a lamb to the slaughter.  The relatives were definitely capable of stitching up Jeremy like Mugford
Everyone of them had to lie and scheme to get there hands on the jackpots they craved
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2020, 03:57:PM »
Thank you for your detailed response as usual. I suppose that’s why I wanted you to write to Jeremy to see what you thought yourself.
There are so many reasons I believe Jeremy is not very bright or streetwise and when it’s discussed on here about timings and phone calls and bike rides and moving telephones and staged bodies I really believe he couldn’t pull it off.
I think he had a pretty charmed life (although he wasn’t old enough to enjoy it) and I have not read or seen anything that bad that would make him plan the murders.
I think it’s clear June deep down adored Jeremy and I’m sure if he had said I want to go travelling to Australia for another year his parents would probably
Have funded it. I accept he could be responsible but everything I have learnt about Jeremy I believe it was a tragic accident

This not very bright boy was like a lamb to the slaughter.  The relatives were definitely capable of stitching up Jeremy like Mugford
Everyone of them had to lie and scheme to get there hands on the jackpots they craved

In fact, I have corresponded with him.  This was a long time ago, and Jeremy probably won't remember.  In the process, I made it clear to him that I viewed him as probably guilty.  I'm that type of person - I'm straight with people.  He didn't seem to mind and our correspondence was pleasant, while it lasted.  He did say to me that I could ask him questions about the case, if I wanted.  One reason the correspondence petered out is that I did start asking him questions, and this was when the detailed and probing side of my nature came out, and I think it annoyed him.  I think this is understandable and I don't conclude anything from it.  It's his prerogative entirely.

To be honest, I can't really conclude anything of great significance from the correspondence.  He seemed fairly normal, maybe a bit bland and superficial, but then, he's in a high security prison and his letters will be subject to review and censorship, so what can we expect?

I think he has a normal level of intelligence, perhaps somewhat above average.  He's not a deep thinker.  His political and social views seemed to be fairly middle-ground and mainstream.  Basically, a 'go along to get along' type of person.  Basically, just a normal person.  If anything, a bit boring, to be honest.

One similarity with me is in personality and sense of humour.  We'd probably be like two peas in a pod if we knew each other on the outside, and I picked it up subtly in his letters.  I think he tried to conceal it - from which I conclude only that somebody is reading his letters, he knows this, and he doesn't want to come across as controversial or distasteful.  But that's normal for a high security prisoner, especially a lifer.  The behaviour of most lifers is quite conservative in prison.  It's not suspicious.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2020, 09:20:PM »
For me the last few weeks since you have been posting has been an absolute joy although my view is still Jeremy not responsible. You seem to have seen off most of the bullies and they no longer seem to want to challenge you further.

You have made it clear that you think Jeremy could be responsible but you have also made it clear you believe there was never enough evidence or proof for him to convicted.

Therefore both of us believe Jeremy COULD be innocent so if you were in his position what do you think he should do next.  He has to do something he is on a full life tariff

Do you believe this case could be one of the biggest miscarriages of justice ever and what is your view of the CCRC
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2023, 10:32:AM »
For me the last few weeks since you have been posting has been an absolute joy although my view is still Jeremy not responsible. You seem to have seen off most of the bullies and they no longer seem to want to challenge you further.

You have made it clear that you think Jeremy could be responsible but you have also made it clear you believe there was never enough evidence or proof for him to convicted.

Therefore both of us believe Jeremy COULD be innocent so if you were in his position what do you think he should do next.  He has to do something he is on a full life tariff

Do you believe this case could be one of the biggest miscarriages of justice ever and what is your view of the CCRC

Yes. I have bumped this thread which some may like to review. It mentions Tyzack and has a lot of interesting points which members may wish to 'pick up on'

Offline ILB

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Re: Justice for Jeremy
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2023, 10:47:AM »
That bloody song.

No disrespect to the artists talent. I just baulk at such stuff for some reason. Especially due to the event.

Yes I am sometimes a grumpy old sod!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2023, 10:48:AM by ILB »
If yesterday you hated me. Then today you can not stop the love that binds from me to you. And you to me