Prof' Herbert Leon McDonnel - whoever moved hand from neck to gun, murdered her.

[grahameb]

Sorry 

[Roch]

One word: obtuse. 

You seem to have stopped looking at the evidence and started dribbling Rochy, I don't care if you have a different view, that's fine. But when you start posting things in support of JB (or against) which amount to nothing but commentry, I don't really know how to respond to it, or whether I even should. 

I'll rephrase it for you. 

The following are facts:

Jeremy Bamber is legally guilty of five murders.
Many believe he is genuinely cupable for the murders and/or actually committed them himself. 
The prosecutions case is that he stage managed his sister's body to make it look like suicide.
He invited a blood pattern expert to examine crime scene photographs of this said sister, even though he killed her.

Essex Police / DPP concealed true extent of communications logs for 18 years. Or at least, they were aware of the content of such logs but continued to act as if the content of the logs was not important to the case nor needed to be seen by anyone else.

They have somehow managed to escape any further examination of this issue in a court, by relating the content of the logs to an error, caused by an officer mistaking the sex of a body when looking through a window.

I'm just pointing out that it's almost amusing that while Bamber asks a blood pattern expert to examine photographs of one of his victims, the police use a sledge hammer to crack a nut with regards to concealing a mistake.  I wasn't trying to score points off you.  I'm just asking the questions.. What should we believe is credible in this case?  Where should we be reading inbetween the lines?

[mike tesko]

Not trying to help Harts .... just commenting on what Mike said Prof. Herb had concluded!

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You are an idiot...

[mike tesko]

Erm yes okay Mike. So let me get this straight, you've tried to use the report to implicate the police, then when I point out that it says no such thing, you try to suggest the report is inaccurate?

As you please.

... Police stage managed Sheila's body in the bedroom, PC Bird then took pictures, Prof' McDonnell then examined pictures and arrived at certain conclusions, based upon those pictures showing the position of Sheila's body undisturbed - which has serious implications on any findings. McDonnell concludes that whoever moved Sheila's hand from her neck to the gun killed her - work it out for yourself, who do you think moved her hand? Who do you think moved the gun from the window at 7.15am, onto the body? Why would PS Adams say he had no recollection of a gun being on Sheila's body, if there was a gun on the body at that time? Read McDonnells report and his findings, bearing in mind that he was deceived into believing those pictures represented how Sheila's body was found when the police first got into the farmhoure, not that the pictures only represented how Sheila's body ended up by 10 am, after police stage managed her body - the jury were also victims of the same deception, and as such, the convictions are unsafe and should be quashed...

No Mike, he doesn't, but I'm bored of repeating myself, I posted a link to his report above, people can make their own minds up. Also yet again though, you are using an unsubstantiated theory to prove an unsubstantiated theory, but it doesn't matter. Carry on.

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How did Shela's hand get from the side of her neck, onto the gun, in between shots, and back onto the gun in time for PC Bird to photograph it there? The triangular bloodstain on the upper right side of her nightdress got there as described by McDonnell...

Work it out for yourself...

Police did stage manage her body on the bedroom floor with the use of the riffle, and they put her hand upon the gun, and adjusted it at some point.

How many weapons were found in the main bedroom?

Shouldn't there have been two if Jeremy killed Sheila and stage managed her body to make it look like a suicide?

How come there is only reference to there being one gun in the bedroom>?

What happened to the rifle at the bedroom window that was seen there by WPC Jeapes at about 7:15am? Who moved it, surely not Jeremy, if so you need to explain how he got into the farmhouse after 7:15am, and moved the gun from the bedroom window? The only persons who could have moved it, were Sheila, or the police?

Or the police have lied about how many guns were found in the main bedroom?

If they have lied about that, why?

[Hartley]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

[curiousessex]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.

[mike tesko]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

--------------

Stop talking nonsense, the stage managing took place before SOCO were even allowed in the house,get your facts right, SOC were not allowed to take control of the scene until 10am, even though the police surgeon, DR Craig, certified death in Sheila's case at precisely 8:44am - so what were SOC doing in the interim period?

Oh, and yes, PC Bird did photograph the rifle at the bedroom window after it had been photographed on Sheila's body at a time before PS Woodcock said he moved it off the body - so, yes, after SOC took control of the scene, PC Bird did witness the movement of the gun from the body before PS Woodcock said he moved the gun from the body...

Whilst on the subject of PC Bird, he produced a false photographic record claiming that there were only 223 pictures taken in connection with this case, when all along there had been 358?

So, he lied, just like the rest of them, and he lied because he was part of the cover up, albeit only doing what he was told to do by senior officers who supervised and controlled the cover up...

[mike tesko]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.

--------------------

The main  stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...

[curiousessex]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.

--------------------

The main  stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...

Are you saying the photographs of Sheila's body are of no evidential value?

[Hartley]

I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.

[mike tesko]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.

--------------------

The main  stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...

Are you saying the photographs of Sheila's body are of no evidential value?

--------------------

Trick question?

I am saying that the jury were led to believe that the pictures depicted how the bodies, including Sheila's, were found by the police who entered the farmhouse in the first instance at just after 7:30am, but none of the firearms team were called to court to testify that the position of the bodies was as they found them, when they first got into the house. The court was deceived, because all those pictures did, is confirm the position of the bodies as they were at just after 10am, that morning, and therefore, the court has been deceived by PC Birds falsified photographic album records, which claimed only 223 pictures had been taken in connection with the case, when all along 358 had been taken...

Several of the firearms officers told COLP during their 1991 interviews that they thought the bodies had been moved by reference to some of the crime scene pictures they were shown at a debriefing held at Witham police station on the evening of 7th August 1985...

Prof' McDonnell was also fooled by this feature of the case, and so have many many others...

The jury did not get to hear anything at all about this important evidence...

[mike tesko]

I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.

----------------

Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...

[jon]

The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.

If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.

This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.

I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.

If the police never stage manged SC body , why did not one of them say ' this body as been staged managed to look like suicide ' , they were experienced officer's , a gun does not come to lay in that position after a suicide , they never mentioned it because they stage managed the scene !!

[Hartley]

I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.

----------------

Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...

Yes that must be it.  Perhaps the photo which you yourself added a mote to describing Ralph as being in a sitting position is fabricated. 

[mike tesko]

I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.

----------------

Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...

Yes that must be it.  Perhaps the photo which you yourself added a mote to describing Ralph as being in a sitting position is fabricated. 

-------------------

You are a complete idiot...

I said that his body was frozen in a sitting position by rigor mortis...