Ballistics manipulation

[snow66!]

Why would Jeremy broach the subject? He can't afford to let on he knew anything about what occurred from the time he pulled away in the car on the Tuesday evening.

I covered this in the 'Three hour Aga burns' Steve.

If bamber knew that the police moved Nevill he could have hinted in a round about way that the Aga may have made the marks,he could have sworn to his defence team that he did not burn Nevills back with the rifle and that the only other source of heat was the Aga,yet he said NOTHING and let the accusations of torturing Nevill or whatever stand.
Doesn't sit right does it Steve? The Aga burns will cause a whole lot of awkward questions Steve that will bug you and bug you untill the seed of doubt is firmly planted in your mind.

Dont fight it Steve,let logical Steve take over.

[ILB]

I cant see why even if gulity he would torture his father.

Nevill was the person he was closest to in the family unit.

I can understand if gulity he couldn't torture Shelia. June would be the most likely candidate if indeed it was torture

Of course it could be argued on the flipside he was angered by nevills fight when he was expecting a clean killing spree and he exacted revenge via this way

[Steve_uk]

I covered this in the 'Three hour Aga burns' Steve.

If bamber knew that the police moved Nevill he could have hinted in a round about way that the Aga may have made the marks,he could have sworn to his defence team that he did not burn Nevills back with the rifle and that the only other source of heat was the Aga,yet he said NOTHING and let the accusations of torturing Nevill or whatever stand.
Doesn't sit right does it Steve? The Aga burns will cause a whole lot of awkward questions Steve that will bug you and bug you untill the seed of doubt is firmly planted in your mind.

Dont fight it Steve,let logical Steve take over.

Only because it suited his agenda.

[Roch]

Considering the fact he is the root cause of two members here trolling this forum to this day. He will always be relevant so long as them two continue to post pro-guilt nonsense on here. It makes sense.

David I think you should retract this remark. Trolling is way to strong a term. You can argue that Mason Doyle had an impact on posters regarding a change of position, but that would just be your position, not necessarily fact. To label them as trolls is inaccurate and uncalled for.

[Steve_uk]

I cant see why even if gulity he would torture his father.

Nevill was the person he was closest to in the family unit.

I can understand if gulity he couldn't torture Shelia. June would be the most likely candidate if indeed it was torture

Of course it could be argued on the flipside he was angered by nevills fight when he was expecting a clean killing spree and he exacted revenge via this way

He had to check his father was dead, the man who had dominated his life for so long and under whose shadow he had been living, the paterfamilias he could never hope to emulate, and whom for the first time in his life he had the upper hand. In Jeremy's mind his father and mother had driven him to this state of affairs: it was their fault he lost control momentarily and pumped bullet after bullet in him, saving the last shot for mother, targeted right between the eyes. As he told Julie during one of his deliberations on the killings: "For the way they have treated me they have forfeited the right to live."

[snow66!]

Only because it suited his agenda.

Dont understand Steve??

[Steve_uk]

Dont understand Steve??

Well the trial judge summed up: it was either Sheila or Jeremy. It suited Jeremy's agenda to let his legal team et al think Sheila had gone berserk with a gun.

[ILB]

He had to check his father was dead, the man who had dominated his life for so long and under whose shadow he had been living, the paterfamilias he could never hope to emulate, and whom for the first time in his life he had the upper hand. In Jeremy's mind his father and mother had driven him to this state of affairs: it was their fault he lost control momentarily and pumped bullet after bullet in him, saving the last shot for mother, targeted right between the eyes. As he told Julie during one of his deliberations on the killings: "For the way they have treated me they have forfeited the right to live."

The most simple way of checking for signs of life is a pulse taking.

I was taught this in the cadets in 1981. I am from a council estate

It's very likely Jeremy Bamber would know the same method

[ILB]

Well the trial judge summed up: it was either Sheila or Jeremy. It suited Jeremy's agenda to let his legal team et al think Sheila had gone berserk with a gun.

The trial judge gave the jury " the route to verdict" in referencing the silencer as more or less gospel

[snow66!]

Well the trial judge summed up: it was either Sheila or Jeremy. It suited Jeremy's agenda to let his legal team et al think Sheila had gone berserk with a gun.

But why didn't Bamber hint to his defence team that the Aga made the burns Steve if he knew the police moved the body and he didn't make the marks himself with the rifle?

[ILB]

But why didn't Bamber hint to his defence team that the Aga made the burns Steve if he knew the police moved the body and he didn't make the marks himself with the rifle?

Snow a bloke on trial for murder can't say that for clarity and claim innocence at the same time can he......

It opens the floodgates to " how would you know?

[snow66!]

Snow a bloke on trial for murder can't say that for clarity and claim innocence at the same time can he......

It opens the floodgates to " how would you know?

Yes,I know ILB,but if Bamber was guilty and the police moved Nevill couldn't JB have hinted to his defence team that the Aga must have made the marks because he certainly didn't? Why bother trying to prove that the marks were made by the rifle barrel at appeal if he knew the Aga made them?

Boyce or another balistic expert could have found the source of the marks before his trial and this would have given the prosecution severe problems explaining why Nevill was moved.
Even if Bamber was guilty he would have uesd the fact that Nevills body was moved and would have probably avoided being charged even.
Dont you think the fact that he never ever even hinted over the years that Nevill had been moved points to innocence ILB?

As I have said before,it is what JB didn't know or divulge over the years that has to point to innocence,including the bloodied bible among other things.

[snow66!]

Yes,if the police moved Nevill this logically proves Bambers innocence due to the fact that he didn't use this knowledge to his advantage,therefore he did not know the police had moved Nevill therefore proving his innocence.

If Nevill lay against the Aga for several minutes or hours before getting up again, this logically proves JBs innocence due to the fact JB would have killed him immediately and not wasted any time waiting for him to recover.
The Aga marks are a big deal,they undermine many witness statements including Julie's and they logically point to Sheila as the killer.
No doubt JBs legal team are scrutinizing all statements at the moment and going through every possible scenario involving the Aga burns  to hand ,then when the CCRC have accepted that the Aga made the marks the defence team will produce all the possible scenarios which will undoubtably  point to Sheila as the killer all along.

Yes,JB should indeed be released before the year is out.

[snow66!]

Oh well,seems everyone has gone to bed,bored to death hearing about the Aga marks again.
Oh well,what will we talk about now? It wont matter,it will probably be moved or removed for being off topic.
I know.Our cat has recently started jumping round and looking at her back as if something had just touched her. She does this several times a day but doesn't seem to be in pain. Having read about the symptoms,it seems it may be spasms of some sort,anyway,if it doesn't improve we will have her checked out by the vet.

Anyway,aren't cats fussy nowadays,she mostly eats treats like 'Dreamies' and the like.She wont even eat a bit of beef or chicken,although sometimes a bit of boiled ham.
Remember when you only got cat food in large tins,either Choosy,Kite-cat,or Whiskas? That was about it,wasn't it.
Cats are just as clever as dogs,our cat plays hide and seek with me,genuinely.She runs away through the house  and hides,and when I find her I then  run away and hide and she comes looking.
Great fun really.
What do you mean get a life?
Oh well,you may just be unfortunate enough to read this before its removed! Bye,bye.

[Zoso]

If I may just mention Mr Harrisons book one more time,concerning the burns to Nevills back,or should I say the lack of any mention of them at all.

Now I cant remember if they are spoken about anywhere else in the book,but they dont seem to be mentioned in the scenario which was sent to Harrison from the ex-con.

Now,I know I keep going on about the importance of the Aga causing the burns,but I really do think that if this 'theory' is accepted it has far wider implications than you may think ie,none of the witnesses mention Nevill lying against the Aga.Harrisons informant says that Nevill ran down stairs and was manhandled into a chair before being beaten and shot,no mention of burns at all that I can see,and definately no mention of Nevill lying on the floor for any length of time.

Now it is the same with Julie's statement,McDonald tells JB that the old man put up a fearsome fight,but no mention of him lying on the floor beside the Aga for a spell.
Now,I dont know who thinks Harrisons informant is reliable,but if you do,how do you account for the omission of the Aga burns? An activity which would have seen Nevill lying against the Aga for a considerable length of time.

The informant does not mention JB and Sheila knocking Nevill to the floor and then moving him away from the Aga several minutes later.Why didn't JB tell the informant this detail? Doesn't this discredit Harrisons book completely?

Ok,ok,only if you believe the Aga made the marks you are screaming.Well,I think the Aga marks will be accepted by the CCRC for reasons already given.If so,I think we can write off the alleged ex-con story.

And what about Julie,cant the same be said about her? What about the police scenario?
The thing is,none of the scenarios put forward mention a break in the massacre while Nevill is lying against the Aga. Every one has Nevill simply beaten then shot.

It is a very,very uncomfortable event to insert into a JB scenario indeed,an inconvenience as Roch put it.

In a nutshell,no one mentions Nevill lying against the Aga,not JB,not the ex-con,not Julie and not the police.Is this because the only person to see Nevill lying against the Aga was Sheila?

Now I know that Bubo and the campaign team claim that the police knew about Nevill lying against the Aga and moved him onto the chair, but does this make sense?

If the police moved Nevill wouldn't they have known that the Aga caused the burns? Did they hide this knowledge? Did Vanezis know? Has the police known from the start what caused the burns?
Still,they were small marks,so Nevill may have been moved without anyone noticing them.

No matter how you look at it,the ex-con and Sheila are totally unreliable witnesses by omitting the fact that Nevill was lying by the Aga mid massacre for several minutes or maybe even hours.

Paul Harrisons book isn't worth consideration (except the part I wrote  - which seems at odds with the rest of his book). I don't know if he started with an innocent perspective but that's what he told Bamber. I don't know if he couldn't be bothered to do the research or if he had personal issues which spiralled but, I think he missed the deadline a few times and ended up cobbling that thing together. I don't think anyone buys the whole 'informant' letter thing. His book is bad, even worse than the Scott Lomax account.