Why can't NATO win a land war against Russia in Europe?

[Steve_uk]

    If the best that can be said of the supposed "Sanctions from Hell", that would crush Russia and turn the "Rouble to Rubble", is that they are a "mixed picture economically" then that is an admission of their failure really, Steve. Europe, particularly, has been hit hard whilst Russia has adapted and moved on with little to no impact. The loss of gas market to Europe has been to Europe's loss and detriment, not Russia's. Russia have redirected them and exports are up.
    The moral high ground which Russia has "lost" in your eyes is perhaps not meant for your eyes, Steve. Russia's moral standing in Eurasia, Latin America, Africa is viewed through a different lens than the one that you view it through. The moral standing of the West is being well and truly exposed and those countries that have suffered from the Imperialist, colonialist wars and exploitation are behind Russia. NATO , outside of NATOstan, are seen as an aggressive warmongering threat by every country on the planet. No matter how much NATOstani's believe this about Russia, the majority of the world don't.
     A growing minority in NATOstan are also coming to this realisation.

Time will tell whether Russia has been digging into its reserves to prop up the value of the rouble. The gas pipeline to Germany was easy money, instead of transporting the stuff in canisters to places much further afield. Oil has been sold at discount rates. Electoral intimidation is rife in Russia, China's elections are a joke, and even India seems to have fallen from grace. That's a mighty section of the world's population where Western-style democracy is despised, however much you wish to praise BRICS. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/southasia/2019/05/10/the-new-indian-election-free-but-not-fair/

[gringo]

Time will tell whether Russia has been digging into its reserves to prop up the value of the rouble. The gas pipeline to Germany was easy money, instead of transporting the stuff in canisters to places much further afield. Oil has been sold at discount rates. Electoral intimidation is rife in Russia, China's elections are a joke, and even India seems to have fallen from grace. That's a mighty section of the world's population where Western-style democracy is despised, however much you wish to praise BRICS. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/southasia/2019/05/10/the-new-indian-election-free-but-not-fair/

    There is also a growing section of Western populations where "Western style democracy is despised." So called, "Western style democracies", are the same countries that have invaded, destroyed and murdered countless civilians without the support or consent of the populations of these so called "democracies". The polities that you criticise would not survive the public push-back against the sort of interventions taken by "Western style democracies". Most of the world, and perhaps even a majority within "Western style democracies", recognise as clear as day that there is no democracy in "Western style democracies".

[Roch]

'there is no democracy in "Western style democracies'.

In this country you have a simple choice when voting in a government.

You either vote in a Conservative government.

Or

You vote in a right-leaning Labour government.

You are not allowed to vote in a left leaning Labour government.  Even a center left Labour government would be an illusion. They would follow Conservative foreign policy etc. And, would be committed to a status quo of how both our own and allies' security services operate. Something which a left leaning Labour govt would not. Therefore, they are not allowed.

That is the extent of democracy in our country.

[gringo]

In this country you have a simple choice when voting in a government.

You either vote in a Conservative government.

Or

You vote in a right-leaning Labour government.

You are not allowed to vote in a left leaning Labour government.  Even a center left Labour government would be an illusion. They would follow Conservative foreign policy etc. And, would be committed to a status quo of how both our own and allies' security services operate. Something which a left leaning Labour govt would not. Therefore, they are not allowed.

That is the extent of democracy in our country.

    Democracy, Western Style, is the biggest lie of all. It doesn't exist. The governments that Western populations have been trained to hate and see as "authoritarian tyrants" would not have survived the public backlash had they launched the aggressive resource theft/control wars that have been launched by "Western Democracies". Neither Chinese nor Russian publics would have acquiesced to such aggressions as the Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan aggressions by NATO/US. Western populations are conditioned to believe that the Rest of the World thinks in the same zero sum terms as themselves. Cracks are becoming fissures and the whole "Empire of Lies" is crashing. The eyes of Western populace are being opened. Saw a tweet from Sirius Report (copied/pasted below) a few days ago that sums up my thoughts. I think a day of reckoning is coming-it feels inevitable;

"Everyone is going to have to face the uncomfortable truth that the grotesque lie about Iraqi WMDs is but the very tip of the iceberg.

What people fail to grasp is longer these  lies go unaccounted for the more it is going to impact their own lives in very damaging ways."

[David1819]

Russian Uragan & Grad MLRSs destroyed by Ukrainian Airburst Munitions. 2023.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/14yv1c9/russian_uragan_grad_mlrss_destroyed_by_ukrainian/

[David1819]

A Russian Buk-M2 air defense system is hit and destroyed by Ukrainian artillery on the Zaporizhzhia front

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/14xrzwb/a_russian_bukm2_air_defense_system_is_hit_and/

[David1819]

Russian troops inspecting what remains of their tanks

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/150enh6/russian_troops_inspecting_their_tanks_after_an/

[gringo]

      NATO regime media beginning to face the truth of the fact that NATO cannot defeat Russia. An interview on CNN with Eric Schmidt is very revealing. It basically confirms everything that "Tankie Fantasy World" has long known. His attempts to put on as much positive spin as he can do not disguise the fact that the problems that he addresses can't be hand waved away.
     The ammunition issue and the overwhelming advantage that Russia hold, which is admitted, segues not entirely seamlessly into the claim that neither side possess enough advantage to move the lines and that it is caught in some sort of stalemate. This is wishful thinking, not analysis.
     Schmidt confirms exactly what I have repeatedly stated and in fact gives Russia an even greater advantage. According to him, Russia are firing 60,000 shells a day compared to the Ukrainian 5,000. He admits that the entirety of NATO production can only produce 1,000,000 shells a year. Russia are using over 20,000,000 per year and have what he calls an "infinite supply".
      This is same media that were telling us a year ago, ten months ago, 8 months ago... that Russia were about to run out of ammo any day/week now. CNN and the rest are all joining "Conspiritard Tankie Fantasy World".
      Schmidt also describes how the Ukrainians are struggling to advance because of the minefields, artillery, drones, KA52's stopping any advance before a Russian is seen.
      With all of this in mind, his assertion of some kind of stalemate is fanciful. It should be obvious to anyone now that the Russian strategy is to disarm by attrition. When this is done and there is nothing to fire back, the Russians won't just be sitting back waiting for the Ukrainians/NATO to get some more shells. If the Ukrainians fail to recognise their helpless situation and surrender, they will be slaughtered. To quote the numbers that Schmidt did and not recognise the inevitable consequence of running out of shells is hopium.
      All of this information has long been available and the consequences obvious all along. I have stated this from the beginning as have many other voices. Even the regime propagandists see the writing on the wall and are busily preparing an off ramp and getting ready to pack up, leave and declare victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjInnRL-HUg&ab_channel=CNN
 

[gringo]

 Reply #2506 on: February 15, 2023, 11:17:PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
    Jens Stoltenberg today;

“It is clear that we are in a race of logistics,” he said. “The war in Ukraine is consuming an enormous amount of munitions and depleting allied stockpiles.”

Mr. Stoltenberg said Ukrainian troops are expending ammo at “many times higher” than the current rate of production for NATO members. The situation is putting pressure on allied defense industries.

He said the waiting time for large caliber ammunition — such as shells for the 155mm howitzers sent by the U.S. — has increased from 12 to 28 months, on average.

“Orders placed today would only be delivered 2½ years later. So we need to ramp up production and invest in our production capacity,” Mr. Stoltenberg told reporters at NATO headquarters.

    In red above, tells the tale of the real state of affairs on the battlefield. It is not disputed that the rate of artillery fire heavily favours the Russians by something between 8 and 10 to 1. Stoltenberg admits that even that current rate of fire is more than can be produced by the entirety of NATO. Their stockpiles are massively depleted and they cannot even keep up a rate which is 1/10th of russia's current firing rate. Western intelligence, parroted by the usual suspects on here, have been telling us for months that Russia are running out of everything from ammo to tanks to missiles.
     The promised imminent Russia about to run out of stuff never happened and here we are. NATO cannot even sustain 10% of Russian ammo production and are running out of tanks, ammo, men.
     Seems as if Russia's go slow grinding has some strategic value after all. It is bleeding NATO dry-a complete reversal of NATO plans. This is not surprising. Just as the "sanctions from hell" have backfired spectacularly on the sanctioners, the sanctioned(Russia) are doing just fine.
     NATO planners versus Russian General Staff is like David vs ngb at chess.

     The above from 5 months ago. Followed by;

 What a clown show. Talking about the ammunition crisis faced by NATO in Ukraine. Simple version- NATO are not prepared or equipped to take on Russia and are fucked. Russia didn't fight the way NATO planned for and NATO had no plan b. 20th century war instead of 21st century war? It would be hilarious if it wasn't real.
    Plan A, rather than some comprehensively gamed strategy, was something between hope and wishful thinking. You are now slowly being prepared for the inevitable(all along)defeat of NATO and its proxy.

     
     David's reply to the above;

You are living in a complete fantasy world.

     Do you still think that it is fantasy? What happens when Ukraine can't fire back? If there is a negotiated settlement, who do you think gets to dictate the terms of the settlement, given the above admitted state of affairs?

[Steve_uk]

Reply #2506 on: February 15, 2023, 11:17:PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
    Jens Stoltenberg today;

“It is clear that we are in a race of logistics,” he said. “The war in Ukraine is consuming an enormous amount of munitions and depleting allied stockpiles.”

Mr. Stoltenberg said Ukrainian troops are expending ammo at “many times higher” than the current rate of production for NATO members. The situation is putting pressure on allied defense industries.

He said the waiting time for large caliber ammunition — such as shells for the 155mm howitzers sent by the U.S. — has increased from 12 to 28 months, on average.

“Orders placed today would only be delivered 2½ years later. So we need to ramp up production and invest in our production capacity,” Mr. Stoltenberg told reporters at NATO headquarters.

    In red above, tells the tale of the real state of affairs on the battlefield. It is not disputed that the rate of artillery fire heavily favours the Russians by something between 8 and 10 to 1. Stoltenberg admits that even that current rate of fire is more than can be produced by the entirety of NATO. Their stockpiles are massively depleted and they cannot even keep up a rate which is 1/10th of russia's current firing rate. Western intelligence, parroted by the usual suspects on here, have been telling us for months that Russia are running out of everything from ammo to tanks to missiles.
     The promised imminent Russia about to run out of stuff never happened and here we are. NATO cannot even sustain 10% of Russian ammo production and are running out of tanks, ammo, men.
     Seems as if Russia's go slow grinding has some strategic value after all. It is bleeding NATO dry-a complete reversal of NATO plans. This is not surprising. Just as the "sanctions from hell" have backfired spectacularly on the sanctioners, the sanctioned(Russia) are doing just fine.
     NATO planners versus Russian General Staff is like David vs ngb at chess.

     The above from 5 months ago. Followed by;

 What a clown show. Talking about the ammunition crisis faced by NATO in Ukraine. Simple version- NATO are not prepared or equipped to take on Russia and are fucked. Russia didn't fight the way NATO planned for and NATO had no plan b. 20th century war instead of 21st century war? It would be hilarious if it wasn't real.
    Plan A, rather than some comprehensively gamed strategy, was something between hope and wishful thinking. You are now slowly being prepared for the inevitable(all along)defeat of NATO and its proxy.

     
     David's reply to the above;

You are living in a complete fantasy world.

     Do you still think that it is fantasy? What happens when Ukraine can't fire back? If there is a negotiated settlement, who do you think gets to dictate the terms of the settlement, given the above admitted state of affairs?

You are a seasoned observer of world affairs gringo and have done meticulous research. Don't you think it possible, even likely that war will be continued by other means? https://youtu.be/Z-jG_vzCRmE

[gringo]

You are a seasoned observer of world affairs gringo and have done meticulous research. Don't you think it possible, even likely that war will be continued by other means? https://youtu.be/Z-jG_vzCRmE

   I do expect that, Steve. The strategy being used by Russia is informed by multi reasons, not just the one. One of the side effects of dragging NATO/Ukraine into trench style artillery war is to eliminate as much of the capability for counter insurgency as possible using the one sided war of attrition.
     NATO training was entirely for counter insurgency. The flipping of the script by Russia that I have previously referred to left NATO/Ukraine completely unprepared. Good military planning allows for contingencies and anticipates them. NATO expected Russia to invade and occupy Ukraine. This is where the Kiev in 3 days comes from. Russia, as is currently being demonstrated, were prepared for a long war of attrition. Why would Russia play into NATO hands and occupy hostile territory facing years of counter insurgency gradually attempting to bleed them out? They learnt lessons from the US sponsored and armed insurgency against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980's.
     The Russian military also were aware of the huge imbalances in industrial capacity. NATO/Ukraine are facing humiliating defeat and as a side effect Russia are removing assets that would have been used for the planned counter insurgency after the expected(by NATO) Russian occupation. There will still be stay behind terror cells (a la Operation Gladio) but they will have nothing but pinprick attacks.
     NATO planning relied entirely on Russia occupying Ukraine using overwhelming air and fire power. They hadn't thought of any contingencies. This is very apparent to everyone now surely. The current imbalance in shell production, tank production, missile production makes clear who was prepared for the events unfolding and who was caught completely unprepared.
     Russia will not attempt to occupy anywhere in Ukraine. Regions that vote to join or align with Russia will have autonomy to provide their own security from their own pro Russian population. Those regions who want to remain with whatever is left of Ukraine will be free to do so. It will be part of any agreement that Ukraine(what is left of it) will be demilitarised and neutral.
      There is too much at stake for those behind Western Imperialism to just walk away. They will kick and scream but the defeat of Western Imperialism is inevitable now. I expect that the changing economic and financial power in the world will nullify much of the anticipated insurgencies within a generation.
     
     

[gringo]

     In the same interview referred to earlier on CNN (ie. NATO regime media) with Eric Schmidt, he also reveals his and NATO planners shock, "at how good the Russians are at Electronic Warfare and jamming...basically everything you send into this battlefield...they jam everything, GPS is jammed, communications are jammed so normal drones don't work..."

     Over a year ago, I repeatedly made the point that Russian Air Defence, Electronic Warfare and missile technology, to name just three, were way in advance of US/NATO tech. This was dismissed as "Tankie fantasy World" by David. Every single point that I have been making for years to demonstrate the impossibility of NATO defeating Russia is now being confirmed by NATO spokespeople and their media, who can no longer credibly claim otherwise given events on the ground.
     Western military technology, planning, capacity, logistics and strategy are being humiliated on a real battleground by Russia. This has been obvious all along to anyone who doesn't rely on Western propaganda for their news.