OFF TOPIC > Russia/Ukraine/Nato

Why can't NATO win a land war against Russia in Europe?

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gringo:
    There is a simple answer to the question but will add some meat to it. Others are welcome to add more.
    The simple answer- It is war, not a game of Top Trumps.

    NATO proponents in order to demonstrate "NATO superiority" over Russia resort to silly comparisons of this or that number of planes, men, money whatever. Just like a game of Top Trumps. If it was a game of Top Trumps, then I agree, NATO win hands down. I'm sure that it is beyond dispute that NATO are superior to Russia, in a game of Top Trumps.
    Unfortunately for NATO, that is where their "superiority" ends. The pretence that Russia are struggling to defeat Ukraine and would be "obliterated" by NATO is fantasy on many levels. Russia are already fighting NATO in Ukraine and confirming what every war gamed scenario ever commissioned by NATO has shown; ie. Russia cannot be defeated by conventional means in a land war in Europe.
    Currently "Ukraine" is armed by, funded by, trained by and provided with all C4ISR intel via US/UK AWACS planes. On top of this are many supposed mercenaries who are all "ex" servicemen of NATO militaries. Targeting and intel provided by NATO. Russia are already fighting NATO and whatever escalations are thrown at Russia, they just carry on grinding away. The rate of attrition is horrendously one sided as one would expect with such an imbalance in shells, missiles, military hardware and logistic lines. It is an agreed fact that Russia are firing somewhere between 8 to 10 shells for every one Ukrainian/NATO shell and acknowledged that 65/70% of casualties/deaths are the result of artillery. It is impossible to believe that the rate of attrition in manpower does not reflect these battleground realities.
     The Russians are penetrating the deep rear of Ukraine with so called Geranium drones, guided glide bombs and missiles destroying weapons stocks and troop concentrations before they get anywhere near any Russians. The current "so called" Ukrainian counter offensive has been a disaster. Men and equipment being destroyed in what is a slaughter, without even reaching the first of three Russian defence echelons. What isn't destroyed by mines is mercilessly pounded in fire zones in the "grey area" stretching kilometres in front of the first echelon of Russian defensive lines by artillery, anti tank guided missiles or destroyed by KA52 attack helicopters operating out of range of Ukrainian counter measures and acting with impunity.
     What else could NATO do to defeat Russia in a land war in Europe?
     Beyond whatever is the claimed number of active personnel and equipment available to NATO in a Top Trumps game, how real would this figure be in an actual war? Who believes that the two largest standing armies in NATO would put "boots on the ground" in this NATO v Russia war in Europe? The largest army (the US) would not politically be able to send the hundreds of thousands of troops required(too many would rapidly be returned to sender). Turkey (the second largest standing army in NATO)? Good luck with that  ::) What rag tag bunch of insignificant militaries in NATO outside the two largest armies are sending all of these troops? How are they getting there in an openly declared Russia/NATO war where Russia get to use the toys saved for this very scenario? Would their publics tolerate the body bags.
     Russia aren't Iraq. They can easily prevent build up on their border by sinking the ships and shooting down the planes before they arrive. Russia, on the other hand, have a somewhat easier logistic chain.
     There are other equally self evident reasons that mean the result of any conventional NATO/Russia war in Europe ends in inevitable Russian victory. NATO leadership are aware of this having war gamed the scenario many times. No military in the world knows how to defend better than Russia. This is objectively true. The only way for NATO to win? is to somehow be able to launch a decapitating first nuclear strike on Russia taking out most of their retaliation ability. This is not possible and utterly mad but Western leadership is clearly compromised and psychopathic. They are also in a hopeless position.
     Like I say, It isn't a game of Top Trumps.

David1819:
Meanwhile in reality, Russia is bringing 70 year old tanks out of storage to the front line to replace all the ones they have lost.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/14r9xcg/a_train_transferring_old_russian_tanks_was/

 

gringo:

--- Quote from: David1819 on July 06, 2023, 02:29:AM ---Meanwhile in reality, Russia is bringing 70 year old tanks out of storage to the front line to replace all the ones they have lost.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/14r9xcg/a_train_transferring_old_russian_tanks_was/

--- End quote ---
    Which they are using as artillery buried into trenches, not as battle tanks. This is well known and is actually an ingenious way of utilising old Soviet equipment. Russia have no shortage of tanks. You are free to believe what you wish. You cannot counter any of the points so repeat idiotic Western propaganda where facts, such as the above, are spun to give wholly false impressions.
     NATO cannot defeat Russia in a land war in Europe. All serious and objective military experts understand this truth. It has been war gamed often enough by NATO always with the same outcome. I believe NATO won when they played Top Trumps  :)

David1819:

--- Quote from: gringo on July 06, 2023, 03:10:AM ---    Which they are using as artillery buried into trenches, not as battle tanks. This is well known and is actually an ingenious way of utilising old Soviet equipment. Russia have no shortage of tanks. You are free to believe what you wish. You cannot counter any of the points so repeat idiotic Western propaganda where facts, such as the above, are spun to give wholly false impressions.
     NATO cannot defeat Russia in a land war in Europe. All serious and objective military experts understand this truth. It has been war gamed often enough by NATO always with the same outcome. I believe NATO won when they played Top Trumps  :)

--- End quote ---

Using 70 year old tanks as artillery despite having thousands of Self-propelled artillery vehicles that fire much larger rounds?  :))

The amount of mental gymnastics you display in trying to justify this botched invasion is hilarious.

lookout:
Russia are keeping the best 'till last. Don't be fooled by them David.

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