Luke's Address

[snow66!]

That he had no alibi. Means and opportunity for disposal. Witnesses who saw him in places he claimed not to have been. Missing clothing and knife. That any forensics could be innocently explained away, as most know, this was a circumstantial case. Whilst there was nothing found directly linking him to the murder, neither was there anything found pointing it to that of a stranger, a another. That he had special knowledge of the location/injuries/clothing, of the victim.

So do we take it that no actual timeline/scenario was produced by the prosecution Parky?
Well I suppose they did in a way,the Bryson sighting at one end of the path then the sighting by Fleming and Walsh at the other before the parka being burned at 6.30.
Just one point,did the prosecution claim that Luke went straight home after the murder or that he went home about 6.30?
I think it was you who proposed that Luke had a quick wash in the river or burn then went straight home,is this your view Parky? We will look at that scenario too.

Alibi wise,well you cant really say that Luke has no alibi for the alleged time of the murder,his mother has never wavered in her testimony that Luke was at home at 5.15,even passing a polygraph.
As for Shane,well now that you have posted his trial testimony the most you can say is that he didn't see Luke at supper time,there was no admission obtained by the prosecution that Corrine had coached him on what to say to give Luke an alibi,was there? He never admitted to knowing Luke was guilty or being told so by Corrine.Shane said he didn't know that jodi was dead till Corrine phoned in the middle of the night and this seemed to be accepted in court,yet Luke,Shane and their mum were all at home from 9.55 until Luke went out to look for Jodi at 10.45 or whenever,therefore ,wouldn't it have been sensible to tell Shane the situation at that time? Time to give him the mashing tattie alibi? Apparently not!

Means and opportunity for disposal of evidence,well this takes us back to the two possible scenarios,straight home or home at 6.30.Its worth mentioning that unless Luke went straight home and changed,why did the bicycle boys say he was wearing a short green bomber jacket? Is that correct?

If so,that ties us 100% with Luke rushing home after the murder and dumping the parka before changing into the green bomber jacket.After all,if he was on the way home from killing jodi when the bike boys saw him,where was the parka? And what was he wearing when he met High? Was it a green bomber jacket by any chance? Small point,but may be important.
 Also,if Luke went straight home after the murder,that means he walked back down to the Newbattle end of the path and then back up again to sit on the wall where he was seen by the bike boys.

Special knowledge of the location of the victim etc., Well you just posted Alice Walkers testimony where she was told that it was her idea to go back down the path to look for Jodi,and also that she saw Mia jump up against the wall.I cant remember what was said about Luke seeing her hair scrunchie,didn't AW go over the wall and cradle Jodi once Luke had seen her,hiding the scrunchie from view before the body was photographed?
So,next we will look at the straight home scenario,of course that means Shane was also in the house at this time as well as Corrine! Thats interesting,isn't it?

[snow66!]

So,let us look at a scenario where Luke goes straight home after killing Jodi.
Now first of all,let us just add that Luke had about 30 minutes after the murder to get home and then return to the end of Roans dyke path where he was seen by Fleming and Walsh.
Now this includes travelling time,cleaning time,changing clothes time and telling Corrine and Shane some kind of story,so,half an hour all in.

So,it is claimed that Leonard kelly heard Jodi dying behind the wall at 5.15 but we do not know if more time was used up mutilating the body after that.Anyway it gets a bit more complicated after that.did Luke wash up in a burn or river next or head straight home? Depends how much blood was visible on him I suppose.One things for sure,it would have been tough going wearing a heavy parka jacket.

Anyway,we will assume that Luke headed straight home without washing,so shall we say ten minutes to get home from the murder scene? So,Luke enters his mums house at 5.25 at the very earliest.
Now,we have just discovered that both Shane and Corrine were in the house at this time thanks to Parky posting Shanes trial testimony.

Now let us just point out that Luke couldn't have had much more than ten minutes in the house for this scenario,as he was seen by Fleming and Walsh at the end of the path around 5.45-50.
Now this is very little time to wash and change,let alone explain to his mum and brother what he had just done.
So what was said as Luke entered? Well,must have been something like this,with Corrine and Shane in unison,'where the hell have you been,we're famished,ye ken yi wiz supposed tae hae the supper ready.
Yi should get yir lug skelpit'
So,already in hot soup Luke has to give them the bombshell news of what he has done,but wait a minute,no sooner has he opened his mouth that, he takes out his phone and tries to call Jodi's house at 5.32.It is aborted so he begins again,discussing what he has done for about six minutes before calling Alan Ovens at Jodi's house at 5.38 where he calmly talls him that Jodi hasn't arrived.Shane and Corrine sit silent in the background listening to Lukes lies.

Anyway,we're running out of time,and Luke hasn't even washed yet.What about Shane and Corrine? Are they sitting frozen with shock or have they instantly agreed to give Luke an alibi and head for the firelighters and matches?

Anyway,Luke throws off his clothes and has a shower in record breaking time ,he then pulls on some clean clothes and the green bomber jacket,he then runs down the street and stands by the gate exhausted just as Fleming and Walsh drive past.Phew!
Shane and Luke thereafter go out for the evening and act as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened.

Well,there you are,this must be near enough what happened if Luke went straight home after killing Jodi,no??

Is there any other scenario appart from Luke going home at 6.30??

 

[Parky41]

So do we take it that no actual timeline/scenario was produced by the prosecution Parky?
Well I suppose they did in a way,the Bryson sighting at one end of the path then the sighting by Fleming and Walsh at the other before the parka being burned at 6.30.
Just one point,did the prosecution claim that Luke went straight home after the murder or that he went home about 6.30?
I think it was you who proposed that Luke had a quick wash in the river or burn then went straight home,is this your view Parky? We will look at that scenario too.

Alibi wise,well you cant really say that Luke has no alibi for the alleged time of the murder,his mother has never wavered in her testimony that Luke was at home at 5.15,even passing a polygraph.
As for Shane,well now that you have posted his trial testimony the most you can say is that he didn't see Luke at supper time,there was no admission obtained by the prosecution that Corrine had coached him on what to say to give Luke an alibi,was there? He never admitted to knowing Luke was guilty or being told so by Corrine.Shane said he didn't know that jodi was dead till Corrine phoned in the middle of the night and this seemed to be accepted in court,yet Luke,Shane and their mum were all at home from 9.55 until Luke went out to look for Jodi at 10.45 or whenever,therefore ,wouldn't it have been sensible to tell Shane the situation at that time? Time to give him the mashing tattie alibi? Apparently not!

Means and opportunity for disposal of evidence,well this takes us back to the two possible scenarios,straight home or home at 6.30.Its worth mentioning that unless Luke went straight home and changed,why did the bicycle boys say he was wearing a short green bomber jacket? Is that correct?

If so,that ties us 100% with Luke rushing home after the murder and dumping the parka before changing into the green bomber jacket.After all,if he was on the way home from killing jodi when the bike boys saw him,where was the parka? And what was he wearing when he met High? Was it a green bomber jacket by any chance? Small point,but may be important.
 Also,if Luke went straight home after the murder,that means he walked back down to the Newbattle end of the path and then back up again to sit on the wall where he was seen by the bike boys.

Special knowledge of the location of the victim etc., Well you just posted Alice Walkers testimony where she was told that it was her idea to go back down the path to look for Jodi,and also that she saw Mia jump up against the wall.I cant remember what was said about Luke seeing her hair scrunchie,didn't AW go over the wall and cradle Jodi once Luke had seen her,hiding the scrunchie from view before the body was photographed?
So,next we will look at the straight home scenario,of course that means Shane was also in the house at this time as well as Corrine! Thats interesting,isn't it?

That is all very well, but you are missing something out here of vital importance - It is not what LM claimed had taken place. Who cares what the damn dog was doing, being a dog or whatever on the way down that path, to the V point and no further. It was not alerting to the body of the victim.

The victims body had been hidden some 43ft west of the V break in the wall, around 5ft in from the wall behind a "large oak tree" LM was in the woodland mere seconds, he had barely moved from the V point. Now for this claimed alert, and the reason for him giving that position, it was, his very reason he claimed, for knowing precisely where to go when entering the woodland alone. - Dog didn't make him go left, dog didn't make him be the only one to take the notion of looking into that woodland, climbing up a high wall at the Gino break and shining his torch into nothingness.

LM claimed his dog had alerted to the wall, "some distance past not quite 20yds" the V break in that wall. He narrowed this down to being exactly 43ft past and precisely "parallel" to where her body lay over that wall. He had JaJ's with SK beside him past that break. That only he returned whilst they just kept on walking down the path.

We see from those accounts that this was untrue, they had not been past the break, he had not been past the break. That when he did enter that woodland alone, it was mere seconds, that he had barely moved from the V break on the woodland side. He named the tree, her injuries, clothing and that hair tie that was not visible until the post mortem. All from more than 30ft away. - Again, highlighting why suspicion fell upon. We see just how far SK had to walk down, AW all the way, LM not so much, he had barely moved.

He claimed he had never been in there before, it is dark, wow! look at that lovely big oak tree, damn, look at all that horror, those wounds, what a lovely tree, that is a pretty bobble! in her hair! So, no dog showing him the way, he just knew which direction, he barely moved. Describing things he could not possibly have seen.

To note, the big gap DF is speaking of that the others passed, it not the V break, it is off the lane, prior to meeting with LM. AW, it was her idea to go back down the path, it is why they were there, to search the path and verges together. DF makes an astounding job of showing that the boy, who claimed never to have been in the woodland before, stating he had never seen those breaks before, was the only one to take the notion, to divert a search of the path, verges, to that woodland beyond that high, thick wall. I do wonder, was he shining his torch to the sky to see the Gino break?

5 1/2 mins, of being as 4, didn't LM do an amazing job? No dog alerting to any body, no dog where LM claimed his dog had alerted, nothing to show LM where to go, straight to that wall, a quick swift shine of  his torch, after climbing up the wall, oh there is "nothing there", a few feet into the field, again shines, straight to the V break, up and over, in what he claimed was unfamiliar ground - just seconds, with nothing to guide his way, as in where in here will I go, Oh I know, lets make it left into that narrow passage with all those obstacles, I just have a hunch that there is going to be his "something" down there? 

[snow66!]

That is all very well, but you are missing something out here of vital importance - It is not what LM claimed had taken place. Who cares what the damn dog was doing, being a dog or whatever on the way down that path, to the V point and no further. It was not alerting to the body of the victim.

The victims body had been hidden some 43ft west of the V break in the wall, around 5ft in from the wall behind a "large oak tree" LM was in the woodland mere seconds, he had barely moved from the V point. Now for this claimed alert, and the reason for him giving that position, it was, his very reason he claimed, for knowing precisely where to go when entering the woodland alone. - Dog didn't make him go left, dog didn't make him be the only one to take the notion of looking into that woodland, climbing up a high wall at the Gino break and shining his torch into nothingness.

LM claimed his dog had alerted to the wall, "some distance past not quite 20yds" the V break in that wall. He narrowed this down to being exactly 43ft past and precisely "parallel" to where her body lay over that wall. He had JaJ's with SK beside him past that break. That only he returned whilst they just kept on walking down the path.

We see from those accounts that this was untrue, they had not been past the break, he had not been past the break. That when he did enter that woodland alone, it was mere seconds, that he had barely moved from the V break on the woodland side. He named the tree, her injuries, clothing and that hair tie that was not visible until the post mortem. All from more than 30ft away. - Again, highlighting why suspicion fell upon. We see just how far SK had to walk down, AW all the way, LM not so much, he had barely moved.

He claimed he had never been in there before, it is dark, wow! look at that lovely big oak tree, damn, look at all that horror, those wounds, what a lovely tree, that is a pretty bobble! in her hair! So, no dog showing him the way, he just knew which direction, he barely moved. Describing things he could not possibly have seen.

To note, the big gap DF is speaking of that the others passed, it not the V break, it is off the lane, prior to meeting with LM. AW, it was her idea to go back down the path, it is why they were there, to search the path and verges together. DF makes an astounding job of showing that the boy, who claimed never to have been in the woodland before, stating he had never seen those breaks before, was the only one to take the notion, to divert a search of the path, verges, to that woodland beyond that high, thick wall. I do wonder, was he shining his torch to the sky to see the Gino break?

5 1/2 mins, of being as 4, didn't LM do an amazing job? No dog alerting to any body, no dog where LM claimed his dog had alerted, nothing to show LM where to go, straight to that wall, a quick swift shine of  his torch, after climbing up the wall, oh there is "nothing there", a few feet into the field, again shines, straight to the V break, up and over, in what he claimed was unfamiliar ground - just seconds, with nothing to guide his way, as in where in here will I go, Oh I know, lets make it left into that narrow passage with all those obstacles, I just have a hunch that there is going to be his "something" down there?

If all that is true and points to Lukes guilt Parky,what the hell did Luke think he was doing pretending to find Jodi? Why did he do this? What was his plan? Why did he think this would favour him if it was so obvious to others that it proved his guilt? Isn't the dog story simply true?

[Parky41]

If all that is true and points to Lukes guilt Parky,what the hell did Luke think he was doing pretending to find Jodi? Why did he do this? What was his plan? Why did he think this would favour him if it was so obvious to others that it proved his guilt? Isn't the dog story simply true?

How can the dog story be true when it didn't happen? He was not past that break, he had nothing from his dog showing him the way anywhere. Flip that over again, why do killers put themselves into searches for the victim - And on that note, just how many missing people are found in that time frame? A time frame that went like this?

10:38pm a text is sent, by 10:42pm LM makes the girls mother aware that something is seriously wrong. Less than 8mins later he is into physical search mode in that 10:49pm call, initiates a search directly to the path, by 10:59pm he is upon that path. He holds back on others arriving, quite clearly expecting them to have something for the dog to scent with, they did not. He had told JuJ's he was on the path with his dog. They catch sight of each other, physically meet around the Gino break no earlier than 11:22pm. Discussion, head off, those 5 1/2 mins and bang! Seriously, no way, the position of where the body was, no one, no dog in that woodland, no dog alerting to any body, not past the break, nothing to scent with. - Again, clear and sound reason as to why suspicion fell upon him, why he could not be eliminated.

NB - Even if AW had not suggested they do what they were there to do as a group, he would still have been part of searching, at some point. And, he would have had something to use for the dog. Perhaps control had him be over eager and quick? Before the police became actively involved? Who knows, but again, this is on the basis of why suspicion fell upon him. And if an alibi is already in place, disposal of anything incriminating, a warped mind, who knows?! But that is what did happen.

[snow66!]

How can the dog story be true when it didn't happen? He was not past that break, he had nothing from his dog showing him the way anywhere. Flip that over again, why do killers put themselves into searches for the victim - And on that note, just how many missing people are found in that time frame? A time frame that went like this?

10:38pm a text is sent, by 10:42pm LM makes the girls mother aware that something is seriously wrong. Less than 8mins later he is into physical search mode in that 10:49pm call, initiates a search directly to the path, by 10:59pm he is upon that path. He holds back on others arriving, quite clearly expecting them to have something for the dog to scent with, they did not. He had told JuJ's he was on the path with his dog. They catch sight of each other, physically meet around the Gino break no earlier than 11:22pm. Discussion, head off, those 5 1/2 mins and bang! Seriously, no way, the position of where the body was, no one, no dog in that woodland, no dog alerting to any body, not past the break, nothing to scent with. - Again, clear and sound reason as to why suspicion fell upon him, why he could not be eliminated.

NB - Even if AW had not suggested they do what they were there to do as a group, he would still have been part of searching, at some point. And, he would have had something to use for the dog. Perhaps control had him be over eager and quick? Before the police became actively involved? Who knows, but again, this is on the basis of why suspicion fell upon him. And if an alibi is already in place, disposal of anything incriminating, a warped mind, who knows?! But that is what did happen.

Well,all I know is that it is claimed that Jodi's scent was carried over the wall by the overhanging ivy Parky. That is why Mia stood up and put her paws against the wall,as stated in Alice Walker and Steven Kelly's first statements.
What is your guilty Luke scenario/timeline Parky?

[snow66!]

Off to try and find out what the push bike boys and David High said Luke was wearing.
Jacket wise anyway.

[snow66!]

Well two sources say that the push bike boys said Luke was wearing a green bomber jacket with an orange lining.
Now as we have said,this is very important because it means that Luke must have already been home and changed out of the parka and into the bomber jacket when the boys saw him around 6.00.

So,if this has been accepted as fact then it leaves only one guilty scenario and one only.

It means that Luke went straight home after the murder.He couldn't be on his way home when the push bike boys saw him if he wasn't wearing the parka.Right? So that means if guilty Luke did indeed get home from the murder scene and back down to the entrance to Roans Dyke path within half an hour as we have already discussed.
Is this really possible?
The boys statements would have to be seen of course,but if Luke was indeed wearing a bomber jacket when the boys saw him,DID he have the opportunity time wise to have carried out the murder?

[snow66!]

You know,its quite amusing,the known timeline means that whether Luke was guilty or not he must have left his mums house at 5.40.We know this because he was seen by Fleming and Walsh about 5.45 at the entrance to the path.So in a way,we have proof that Luke was indeed in the house around supper time as he claimed.He muat have either been having his supper as he said or had just arrived home to leave the parka and change into the green bomber jacket,right?
So one way or another Luke must have been telling the truth when he said he left the house at 5.40,right?
Now we could give him about another ten minutes in the house to clean up if we rule out the Fleming/Wash sighting.This would mean Luke only had to walk to the end of the street before being seen by the push bike boys at 5.55.That would give him about 40 minutes at the most after the murder to get home from the crime scene ,clean up and walk to the end of the street.And that is assuming that he had just that very minute reached the end of the street when the boys saw him.That is,he had just arrived and sat down on the wall as the boys went past.

This is also assuming that Luke left the crime scene at bang on 5.15 and not a minute longer,which is unlikely.I hope I am making all this clear?

Anyway,as we have discussed the only other possible scenario is that Luke was on his way home from the murder scene when the bike boys saw him.But this means he must have been wearing the parka at the time and not a green bomber jacket,right?

Now as I say,I dont know if the prosecution gave any kind of detailed guilty scenario/timeline or not,but to be quite honest it is no surprise if they didn't.Is a believable guilty scenario possible?

Is this why the prosecution simply concentrated on what Shane was doing in his bedroom and the claim that Luke went straight to the v break in the wall? And we know that both these claims have problems anyway.We have proven that even if Luke was not in the house at 5.15 when Shane came down stairs,he most certainly was by 5.25-30 guilty or not.The only other possibility is that Luke didn't get home till 6.30,and we have spoken of the problems with that scenario,least of all the bomber jacket.

As for Luke going straight to the crime scene,well we know that appart from him at least two of the other witnesses saw Mia standing up with her paws on the wall.
And even if this was not true,why was it so odd that Luke found Jodi?
Lets just look at what happened.Luke meets up with the others who then decide to go back down the path that Luke has just travelled up,its their idea,not his.Now on the way back Luke searches open areas and fields,now this makes sense,after all he knows Jodi isn't lying in the path,he's just travelled up the path for heavens sake.
And now that he is with the others he can give someone the dog to hold if he has to go over the wall to search,something he could not do on his own,Mia might have scarpered.Although he could have tied her to a branch or fence post I suppose.
Anyway,point being,he's doing the logical thing on the way back searching for Jodi in areas that he didnt/couldn't check on the way up the path on his own.So Luke is already looking through gaps and checking open ground long before they reach the v break.
So would it really have been odd for Luke to climb over the v break even if Mia didn't jump up on the wall?
Anyway the witnesses told the police that mia did jump up against the wall and said she had already been pulling on the lead before that.

So,if we look at all the evidence I dont see a strong case at all against Luke Mitchell,especially if you look at his window of opportunity with the available timeline and limited possible scenarios.
There has to be reasonable doubt surely.
And why did the police try to destroy all the evidence last year?

[Parky41]

You know,its quite amusing,the known timeline means that whether Luke was guilty or not he must have left his mums house at 5.40.We know this because he was seen by Fleming and Walsh about 5.45 at the entrance to the path.So in a way,we have proof that Luke was indeed in the house around supper time as he claimed.He muat have either been having his supper as he said or had just arrived home to leave the parka and change into the green bomber jacket,right?
So one way or another Luke must have been telling the truth when he said he left the house at 5.40,right?
Now we could give him about another ten minutes in the house to clean up if we rule out the Fleming/Wash sighting.This would mean Luke only had to walk to the end of the street before being seen by the push bike boys at 5.55.That would give him about 40 minutes at the most after the murder to get home from the crime scene ,clean up and walk to the end of the street.And that is assuming that he had just that very minute reached the end of the street when the boys saw him.That is,he had just sat down on the wall as the boys went past.

This is also assuming that Luke left the crime scene at bang on 5.15 and not a minute longer,which is unlikely.I hope I am making all this clear?

Anyway,as we have discussed the only other possible scenario is that Luke was on his way home from the murder scene when the bike boys saw him.But this means he must have been wearing the parka at the time and not a green bomber jacket,right?

Now as I say,I dont know if the prosecution gave any kind of detailed guilty scenario/timeline or not,but to be quite honest it is no surprise if they didn't.Is a believable guilty scenario possible?

Is this why the prosecution simply concentrated on what Shane was doing in his bedroom and the claim that Luke went straight to the v break in the wall? And we know that both these claims have problems anyway.We have proven that even if Luke was not in the house at 5.15 when Shane came down stairs,he most certainly was by 5.25-30 guilty or not.The only other possibility is that Luke didn't get home till 6.30,and we have spoken of the problems with that scenario,least of all the bomber jacket.

As for Luke going straight to the crime scene,well we know that appart from him at least two of the other witnesses saw Mia standing up with her paws on the wall.
And even if this was not true,why was it so odd that Luke found Jodi?
Lets just look at what happened.Luke meets up with the others who then decide to go back down the path that Luke has just travelled up,its their idea,not his.Now on the way back Luke searches open areas and fields,now this makes sense,after all he knows Jodi isn't lying in the path,he's just travelled up the path for heavens sake.
And now that he is with the others he can give someone the dog to hold if he has to go over the wall to search,something he could not do on his own,Mia might have scarpered.Although he could have tied her to a branch or fence post I suppose.
Anyway,point being,he's doing the logical thing on the way back searching for Jodi in areas that he didnt/couldn't check on the way up the path on his own.So Luke is already looking through gaps and checking open ground long before they reach the v break.
So would it really have been odd for Luke to climb over the v break even if Mia didn't jump up on the wall?
Anyway the witnesses told the police that mia did jump up against the wall and said she had already been pulling on the lead before that.

So,if we look at all the evidence I dont see a strong case at all against Luke Mitchell,especially if you look at his window of opportunity with the available timeline and limited possible scenarios.
There has to be reasonable doubt surely.
And why did the police try to destroy all the evidence last year?

I agree, it is rather amusing.

[snow66!]

I agree, it is rather amusing.

Could you help out with the times and routes Parky? To give a more accurate timeframe that is.
For instance ,just how long does it take to get from the crime scene to Lukes mums house,and how long does it take to get from his mums house to the entrance of Roan Dyke path?
I think you have mentioned short cuts back from the crime scene? Could you expand on this a little,I take it you dont think he simply used Roans Dyke path and walked up the road to Newbattle Abbey Crescent?
If this is the case,whereabouts did he enter the crescent do you think?
Did he have to cross the river Esk if he used a short cut? Were there any bridges?
Can you help me out with any of this Parky,just to get a more accurate timeframe as I say.

[Parky41]

Could you help out with the times and routes Parky? To give a more accurate timeframe that is.
For instance ,just how long does it take to get from the crime scene to Lukes mums house,and how long does it take to get from his mums house to the entrance of Roan Dyke path?
I think you have mentioned short cuts back from the crime scene? Could you expand on this a little,I take it you dont think he simply used Roans Dyke path and walked up the road to Newbattle Abbey Crescent?
If this is the case,whereabouts did he enter the crescent do you think?
Did he have to cross the river Esk if he used a short cut? Were there any bridges?
Can you help me out with any of this Parky,just to get a more accurate timeframe as I say.

Ok - So good old Google maps, I believe you already located the Mitchell home. Place yourself facing way from it, slight right. The line of high back garden fences follows all the way around and into the woodland area. Very little houses at all with front facing view, just some on the same row as the Mitchell home. It is an option to lesson the risk of being seen if going home or away from it. Thing is he was not seen at all, not even in his version of events. Not even by those staying in the houses that look on to where he said he was sitting on the wall. Only seen at 10pm going home, nearly an hour later than when he claimed to have went home. - Yes the river Esk to cross, and as has been highlighted by residents and dog walkers, there are crossing points from the woodland over into the estate.

I think (with LM being the killer) there was a lot of winging it to see what would transpire. Once the deed is done, not much else one can do outwith the obvious.

Timings - Approx 7mins from house to path entrance, 2 to estate entrance, 10 for path W  - E. The locus, that bottom area of the woodland strip, adds slightly more to the 7, but we have the sighting at approx 5:40pm by F&W. Lane of the AB sighting, around 6mins to where the attack commenced. Time approx in the woodland, would be in excess of 35mins. I have no desire to try and work through how long it takes to attack, kill and mutilate someone. What I did do before, is place many things that could be achieved in that time frame, to show it is actually quite a long time. Long enough for the Crown with whatever experts, to believe that is what happened.

Gaps in time, those 15mins approx from the F&W sighting, then that more expansive time from approx 6:20pm. I am rethinking this also, you see, new information is coming to light, such as LM  possibly being on the phone just short of 6pm? That he was wearing a German army shirt, which is interesting, because he again claimed not to have owned one until after the murder.

NB - The path is not just a path and wall. There is several feet of undergrowth/ground between path and wall. Verge to field and field (others shining torch into these areas, checking). On to the canopy, the bottom third of the path, much more secluded area around it to check also. So this LM not seeing anything on the path itself means nothing. Plus, he had waited on the arrival of the others, he knew they were going to be searching together. On the path by 11pm, we are told he raced up it, false. Above, that 10min walk, he was not even at the top by 11:22pm.

Dog sniffing Ivy, that did make me chuckle. - Caught sight of each other around 11:22pm, AW and co walked down to physically be in his company, almost at the Gino spot. Brief discussion and off. The first thing he did was go to the wall to look over it. - I'll continue with more on this if have time.

[snow66!]

Ok - So good old Google maps, I believe you already located the Mitchell home. Place yourself facing way from it, slight right. The line of high back garden fences follows all the way around and into the woodland area. Very little houses at all with front facing view, just some on the same row as the Mitchell home. It is an option to lesson the risk of being seen if going home or away from it. Thing is he was not seen at all, not even in his version of events. Not even by those staying in the houses that look on to where he said he was sitting on the wall. Only seen at 10pm going home, nearly an hour later than when he claimed to have went home. - Yes the river Esk to cross, and as has been highlighted by residents and dog walkers, there are crossing points from the woodland over into the estate.

I think (with LM being the killer) there was a lot of winging it to see what would transpire. Once the deed is done, not much else one can do outwith the obvious.

Timings - Approx 7mins from house to path entrance, 2 to estate entrance, 10 for path W  - E. The locus, that bottom area of the woodland strip, adds slightly more to the 7, but we have the sighting at approx 5:40pm by F&W. Lane of the AB sighting, around 6mins to where the attack commenced. Time approx in the woodland, would be in excess of 35mins. I have no desire to try and work through how long it takes to attack, kill and mutilate someone. What I did do before, is place many things that could be achieved in that time frame, to show it is actually quite a long time. Long enough for the Crown with whatever experts, to believe that is what happened.

Gaps in time, those 15mins approx from the F&W sighting, then that more expansive time from approx 6:20pm. I am rethinking this also, you see, new information is coming to light, such as LM  possibly being on the phone just short of 6pm? That he was wearing a German army shirt, which is interesting, because he again claimed not to have owned one until after the murder.

NB - The path is not just a path and wall. There is several feet of undergrowth/ground between path and wall. Verge to field and field (others shining torch into these areas, checking). On to the canopy, the bottom third of the path, much more secluded area around it to check also. So this LM not seeing anything on the path itself means nothing. Plus, he had waited on the arrival of the others, he knew they were going to be searching together. On the path by 11pm, we are told he raced up it, false. Above, that 10min walk, he was not even at the top by 11:22pm.

Dog sniffing Ivy, that did make me chuckle. - Caught sight of each other around 11:22pm, AW and co walked down to physically be in his company, almost at the Gino spot. Brief discussion and off. The first thing he did was go to the wall to look over it. - I'll continue with more on this if have time.

Thanks Parky,i'll go through all this in detail,but may need a few points clarrified.
A full scenario timeframe basically,if you think he went straight home after the murder or around 6.30?
As you may know,I mainly concentrate on timeframes and scenarios as a way of determining things Parky.

[snow66!]

Ok - So good old Google maps, I believe you already located the Mitchell home. Place yourself facing way from it, slight right. The line of high back garden fences follows all the way around and into the woodland area. Very little houses at all with front facing view, just some on the same row as the Mitchell home. It is an option to lesson the risk of being seen if going home or away from it. Thing is he was not seen at all, not even in his version of events. Not even by those staying in the houses that look on to where he said he was sitting on the wall. Only seen at 10pm going home, nearly an hour later than when he claimed to have went home. - Yes the river Esk to cross, and as has been highlighted by residents and dog walkers, there are crossing points from the woodland over into the estate.

I think (with LM being the killer) there was a lot of winging it to see what would transpire. Once the deed is done, not much else one can do outwith the obvious.

Timings - Approx 7mins from house to path entrance, 2 to estate entrance, 10 for path W  - E. The locus, that bottom area of the woodland strip, adds slightly more to the 7, but we have the sighting at approx 5:40pm by F&W. Lane of the AB sighting, around 6mins to where the attack commenced. Time approx in the woodland, would be in excess of 35mins. I have no desire to try and work through how long it takes to attack, kill and mutilate someone. What I did do before, is place many things that could be achieved in that time frame, to show it is actually quite a long time. Long enough for the Crown with whatever experts, to believe that is what happened.

Gaps in time, those 15mins approx from the F&W sighting, then that more expansive time from approx 6:20pm. I am rethinking this also, you see, new information is coming to light, such as LM  possibly being on the phone just short of 6pm? That he was wearing a German army shirt, which is interesting, because he again claimed not to have owned one until after the murder.

NB - The path is not just a path and wall. There is several feet of undergrowth/ground between path and wall. Verge to field and field (others shining torch into these areas, checking). On to the canopy, the bottom third of the path, much more secluded area around it to check also. So this LM not seeing anything on the path itself means nothing. Plus, he had waited on the arrival of the others, he knew they were going to be searching together. On the path by 11pm, we are told he raced up it, false. Above, that 10min walk, he was not even at the top by 11:22pm.

Dog sniffing Ivy, that did make me chuckle. - Caught sight of each other around 11:22pm, AW and co walked down to physically be in his company, almost at the Gino spot. Brief discussion and off. The first thing he did was go to the wall to look over it. - I'll continue with more on this if have time.

Ok,firstly,using the wooded area and going round the houses to get onto Newbattle Abbey crescent looks like a longer route than using Newbattle road to get home,can you clarrify how long this route would take?That is,from the locus to Lukes house.In one of your posts you spoke of Luke washing in the River Esk on the way back,did you mean a quick wash to his hands and face or that he waded in and washed his clothes at the same time before walking home soaking wet?

Now,are you saying 17minutes from the locus and walking up Newbattle road,have I got that right?

Now,you seem to accept the Fleming/Walsh sighting Parky,so can you just clarrify if you think Luke was on his way home from the murder scene at this time,or had he been home first?
Not quite sure what the 35 minutes refers to?
What was Luke wearing when the push bike boys saw him,parka or Bomber?
Time on Roans Dyke path before he met search party,seems a long time,haven't really looked into that.Will do.

[Parky41]

Ok,firstly,using the wooded area and going round the houses to get onto Newbattle Abbey crescent looks like a longer route than using Newbattle road to get home,can you clarrify how long this route would take?That is,from the locus to Lukes house.In one of your posts you spoke of Luke washing in the River Esk on the way back,did you mean a quick wash to his hands and face or that he waded in and washed his clothes at the same time before walking home soaking wet?

Now,are you saying 17minutes from the locus and walking up Newbattle road,have I got that right?

Now,you seem to accept the Fleming/Walsh sighting Parky,so can you just clarrify if you think Luke was on his way home from the murder scene at this time,or had he been home first?
Not quite sure what the 35 minutes refers to?
What was Luke wearing when the push bike boys saw him,parka or Bomber?
Time on Roans Dyke path before he met search party,seems a long time,haven't really looked into that.Will do.

Applying some reality over the fallacy in place. Such as:

Two people, same colour, style of heavier outer coat, same hair styles, identified quite naturally as being the same person, short distance and time apart in those quiet suburbs. The 35mins is from the sighting by AB, to before the sighting by F&W, 40mins is more accurate. This is the time for the murder taken place.

Having to clean, using what he was surrounded by, the most natural source going, leaving no trace! The only thing he would have had to clean in reality, is his face, some hair and soles of his boots. Get out of that clothing. I am not saying he did this, I am placing a little more reality over the fallacy in place, which is - That he had to have been bright red, dripping in the stuff, running the full length of that road home, for a long hot shower and change.

As said, re-thinking a little more also. One of the cyclists says he was not wearing that bomber but a German army shirt! Long and baggy. That he also thought he was on the phone. -  It has come to light that some calls have been added that did not happen, no doubt some calls that took place have been omitted? I have always said that the likes of IB is based around safety nets of sourcing. Such as using what ones knows can be sourced, reliance upon that which one believed could not be sourced?

Anyway - Whatever those time scales are between sightings, nothing would be getting carried out at an even pace. We can easily shorten these. The route, if diagonal through the woodland, under cover, to the river and beyond is not longer than the length of road and up through the estate?

So we are still playing around with those 15mins and the larger time period after 6:20pm. Is 15mins enough for him to have initially removed obvious trace from his face etc, changed anything, to emerge back onto Newbattle road from the woodland, for that is where he was next seen? The sequence heading down to the entrance of his estate?

We can't play around with AW's timings, every point of contact was directly to the landline until the last call at 11:03pm then switching to mobile contact. Also witnessed leaving there. As stated, LM claimed he was on/at the path in the 10:59pm call. Communication central around Jodi's mother passing information between both parties. Last prior to meeting, just before the arrival of the police, 11:17pm - 11:20pm.