Author Topic: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...  (Read 16154 times)

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modus tollens

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2011, 08:50:AM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:56:AM by modus tollens »

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #91 on: July 26, 2011, 09:25:AM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."

No not true at all, there have been a great number of different professionals and experts who have offered their opinion, from pathologists, surgeons, world renowned blood experts employed by JB's defence team, ballistics experts and many many others. Not a single one has come to the same conclusion that Mike has suggested.

So with all due respect, I, like the courts would take this host of professional expert opinions over that of one of JB's supporters who is relying solely on a photograph of a photograph to make his point.

In addition to which, the reliance on the images which show Sheila's arm in different positions, does not indicate the lack of rigor mortis in her body, when rigor mortis sets in, a human body will not freeze and turn to stone instantly, it will become stiff over time, starting with the face muscles and then spreading to other joints, in fact the maximum stiffness is reached at 12-24 hours post mortem. So the fact that Sheila's arm could be moved a mere 8 or 9 hours after her death is not in any way unusual.

On another note, you may perhaps suggest that liver mortis does not appear present in the photograph of a photograph, but again that is not true. Two characteristics of liver mortis is that the upper surfaces of the body become lighter (as the photograph and witness statements indicate), and the lower surfaces become discoloured as gravity takes effect on the bodily fluids. The photograph of a photograph does not show this discolouration, but it does not show any part of Sheila's body which would be affected, so it is certainly not evidence of the lack of liver mortis, in fact the paleness signs are present and correct.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:32:AM by Hartley »

Offline smiffy

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #92 on: July 26, 2011, 09:56:AM »
Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.

Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.

Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something!  Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #93 on: July 26, 2011, 10:14:AM »
Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.
Erm, if he was behind the door, the police wouldn't have been able to get in.  ???


Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.

No it doesn't.

Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something!  Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?

Yes I have, but no I have not taken a photograph. You may infer what you choose.

I'm not entirely convinced I ever said you could see the entire door but after looking for myself you can indeed see about half the door, maybe just less than half, maybe a little more if you press your eye ball against the window. So I don't consider myself to have changed my view/claim.

I'm not really sure what a court has to do with anything.  :-\

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #94 on: July 26, 2011, 10:23:AM »
And as it happens, it would appear that Mike has claimed he already has photographs and angles, perhaps you should ask him to post them?

He clearly is unable to, otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly ask that of myself.

I have got the pictures, and I have got the angle taken by a camera man, of the angle visible from entering the kitchen via the internal door behind which the body of Ralph Bamber was sat, and the kitchen window - I am confident that the risk I took, of being prosecuted, was worth it, because it exposes the lies told by police officers about allegedly misidentifying the body of Ralph Bamber , as that of a dead female...

The angle is too acute, you could not make the mistake which the police in this case alleged...

In my opinion...

Offline smiffy

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #95 on: July 26, 2011, 10:34:AM »
Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.
Erm, if he was behind the door, the police wouldn't have been able to get in.  ???


Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.

No it doesn't.

Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something!  Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?

Yes I have, but no I have not taken a photograph. You may infer what you choose.

I'm not entirely convinced I ever said you could see the entire door but after looking for myself you can indeed see about half the door, maybe just less than half, maybe a little more if you press your eye ball against the window. So I don't consider myself to have changed my view/claim.

I'm not really sure what a court has to do with anything.  :-\


so this kitchen door...
how wide is the kitchen door....for if your talking of seeing about a half or a third then you need to know how wide the door is in the first place to estimate from.
if you cannot see the whole width then any estimate is going to be very much based on guesswork unless you already have details on the correct width from another source.

on making this claim...is that the upper part of the door..or does it include the whole height of the door..
or is it really about half to between nearly a third of the width of only the upper part of the door?

a sitting Nevill would be screened from viewing from the kitchen window by the cupboard/unit that is next to the sink unit....

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2011, 10:46:AM »
No Smiffy, the panelling on the door makes it very easy to estimate where the half way point is.

But in any event the door is 838mm in width.

With regards to how close to the ground you can see would depend on the height of the person looking through the window, but myself being over six foot can see from about a foot and a half from the ground.

This photograph may help visualise things?


Offline Enigma

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2011, 11:13:AM »
you will bet a happy meal or a tenner?

WOW very generous you tight git  ;)

For you hun it would be the tenner.
A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips!

Offline Enigma

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2011, 11:22:AM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?

andrea

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #99 on: July 26, 2011, 12:11:PM »
you will bet a happy meal or a tenner?

WOW very generous you tight git  ;)

For you hun it would be the tenner.
A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips!




good job im lucky, and can eat what i like without worrying about my weight  8)

Offline grahameb

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #100 on: July 26, 2011, 12:16:PM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2011, 12:18:PM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?

Not having seen the 89 page dossier explaining the reasons for this, we are all in the dark on this one, so I don't see how it can be factored in to an argument for or against. IMO

Online ngb1066

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2011, 12:25:PM »
Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...

Where did you get your degree in pathology?

Hartley

It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?

In essence, yes.  However the matter is being directly addressed by Jeremy Bamber's team and additional scientific analysis is being undertaken.  It is far too early to write off the evidence of Peter Sutherst - his findings are likely to remain a key part of Jeremy Bamber's case.

 

andrea

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #103 on: July 26, 2011, 12:31:PM »
NGB: when are we going to hear of the ccrc final decision, september was it?

Hartley

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Re: Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...
« Reply #104 on: July 26, 2011, 12:35:PM »
Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.

And no actually, re-reading Gibbons statement dated 23/09/85, you're lying your backside off.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,184.msg485.html#msg485

This is what he actually says:
Together with Chief Superintendent Harris, who had also attended the scene, and Force Support Unit officers, I entered the house. There I saw the body of an elderly male with his trousers partly down seated with his head slumped forward.

Which pretty much describes this photograph does it not?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 12:36:PM by Hartley »