Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...

[mike tesko]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

[Hartley]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistent with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

Surely with that logic it would place the time of death at some point before 7:37am. 

[Enigma]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

   

[Roch]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

You really need to educate your self.  Please read my response to you on the 'banner' thread.  Rope is nearly at the end of its coil here.

[haughton]

I remember reading " when the police entered the kitchen the second time they found that the female dead body and gun had gone walkabout" whereupon the police did a panic and blocked the door to the stairs and waited for back-up. Is this correct?

[grahameb]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.

[grahameb]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?

[ngb1066]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

PB  - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way?  Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you?  You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that.  Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way?  You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others.  However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members. 

 

[Enigma]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

PB  - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way?  Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you?  You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that.  Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way?  You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others.  However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.

I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.

[ngb1066]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?

Grahame

The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary.  A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case.  For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death.  The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died.  By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.

 

[Roch]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

PB  - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way?  Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you?  You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that.  Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way?  You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others.  However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.

I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.

So are you saying Sheila was found at 7.37am?  because that places her found upon entry... in the kitchen.  We are still waiting for you to debate an attachment? 

[ngb1066]

The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.

And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?

One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.

 

PB  - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way?  Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you?  You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that.  Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way?  You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others.  However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.

I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.

PB - nothing is wrong with that and I accept that it is legitimate debate.  However the part I was drawing attention to was the comment I highlighted in blue in my post above.  What does that add to the debate?

 

[haughton]

pb whatever evidence that JB was guilty, there was plenty of evidence to the contrary!

[grahameb]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?

Grahame

The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary.  A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case.  For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death.  The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died.  By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.

So this is another thing which could have cleared Jeremy if done properly. But because things were not carried out by the book this evidence was not much use to the defence or the prosecution in court? So one thing after another was not done correctly?

[ngb1066]

The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...

Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?

Grahame

The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary.  A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case.  For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death.  The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died.  By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.

So this is another thing which could have cleared Jeremy if done properly. But because things were not carried out by the book this evidence was not much use to the defence or the prosecution in court? So one thing after another was not done correctly?

Grahame - you are quite right.  It is another example of the way the police made a completely botched job of the case right from the outset.  This particular error of judgement meant that there is no definitive evidence of the time of death (there is the evidence of the Italian Professors in relation to Sheila but they were working solely from photographs so were severely hampered in the assessment they could make) and this is evidence which could have been very helpful to the defence.