Occupied Palestine- Is Nasrallah correct?

[gringo]

Agree 100%

    New realities on the ground in the Middle East are bound to have wider consequences. Western/US military presence in the region is key and any weakening of that position has the obvious consequence of weakening the Zionist state still further. New realities cause negotiating positions to shift. We certainly live in interesting times, Bubo.
     The Chinese are currently finding diplomatic solutions to long standing and seemingly intractable problems and upending Western dominance of the region. Whilst western populations are propagandised with all sorts of nonsense about China and have a mistrust of them based entirely on this propaganda- others see a different picture. Whilst the US and their NATO lapdogs are busy destroying infrastructure, hospitals, ports etc.-the Chinese are busy building Ports, hospitals and infrastructure.
     For everything the West destroys-China builds. The ROW see this and take notice.
     China can be seen as honest and impartial by the representatives of both sides in the Palestinian territories and their offer to mediate is trusted by both sides. The problem isn't Jews or Muslims or Christians or any other faith or none- the problem is the Zionists. I did at one time believe that a two state solution was possible-I no longer do. A one-state solution is, in my opinion, the only realistic diplomatic solution now. The Chinese, if they pull this one out of the bag, would be the greatest diplomatic achievement in a century or more.
     One way or another, it is difficult to imagine the state of Israel in its current form, surviving for much longer. 
     

[Steve_uk]

    Tellingly you haven't challenged any part of my post. Your only comment is to repeat regime propaganda against Nasrallah and Hezbollah. I will assume that the rest of the post is beyond challenge. Your evidence of Hezbollah being a "terrorist group" rather than a legitimate resistance against Zio aggression is to attribute, wrongly, the suicide bombing which killed 241 US personnel. The 58 French "peacekeepers" killed in the same bombing simply overlooked. 
     If your "evidence" of Hezbollah being a terrorist organisation relies on a bombing more than 40 years ago, that wasn't Hezbollah anyway-well it's worse than weak. It is non existent.
     
     Hezbollah, despite being a Shia group, have wide support amongst many Lebanese and are seen as the only capable resistance against Israel. Why and how did the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon(1985-2000) end? A 15 year occupation, attempting yet more land theft, driven out by Hezbollah. The actual Lebanese Army are toothless.
     The group that claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing on Beirut barracks were "Islamic Jihad". There is no evidence whatsoever that Hezbollah were responsible. The only link between "Hezbollah" and "Islamic Jihad" being the unsupported fantasy writings of Israeli "journalist", Ronen Bergman. Whether it is even a terrorist act is in the eye of the beholder anyway. Foreign military occupying troops, in whatever guise, are a legitimate target of resistance fighters.
     Were the UK, for instance, occupied by Lebanese "peacekeepers", I am sure that you would consider an attack on the foreign occupiers as resistance rather than terrorism. You cannot get past your colonial mindset. It cuts both ways.

https://jamestown.org/brief/sunni-muslims-standing-in-unity-with-shiite-hezbollah/

    From the above;

The latest crisis in the Middle East involving Hezbollah and Israel and ongoing sectarian violence in Iraq has focused attention on an emerging divide between Sunnis and Shiites. The positions of heads of state in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan, among others, who represent predominantly Sunni populations, in not taking a stronger stance in opposing Israel lends credence to the theory that Sunnis are tacitly siding with Israel against Hezbollah in order to check Shiite and, by extension, Iranian influence. In reality, the opposite is the case. Regional capitals and major cities in predominantly Sunni countries have been the scene of regular protests and other forms of dissent in what has been an upsurge of popular support for Hezbollah. In a recent demonstration in Cairo’s downtown Tahrir Square, protestors chanted: “with our soul and blood we support you Lebanon…oh beloved Nasrallah, hit, hit Tel Aviv” and “long live the Lebanese resistance…long live the Palestinian resistance…long live the Iraqi resistance”
The Jordanian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood issued a statement on July 30 on its website declaring its support for what it described as the “mujahideen from Hezbollah,” proclaiming that supporting Hezbollah constitutes a “duty” for all Muslims

    Hezbollah are the resistance to the state terrorism of Israel/US/NATO.

    The only reason that Hezbollah have in the last few years been declared a "terrorist organisation" by the list of usual suspects(Israel, France, UK, US etc.) is precisely because they are a hugely effective political and military force and an extremely effective resistance. Most Arab League countries also declared Hezbollah a terror group in 2016. This does not reflect Arab street opinion. It also needs to seen in the light of the prevailing geo-political circumstances of the time. We are now in the era of rapprochement between previously hostile Arab states, both amongst themselves and collectively towards Iran.
    Hezbollah have many social programs, of which you are no doubt unaware, and provide many healthcare, education, social welfare programs. Hezbollah need wide support to be successful and they don't get wide support by terrorising the population. They do terrorise the shit out of the real terrorists and their proxies. It is well known and admitted by the US military even, that Hezbollah were the most effective force against ISIS and the various western proxy terror groups operating in Syria. Hezbollah's presence in Syria being at the request of the legitimate Syrian govt. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Al Nusra Front etc. were there at the request of their sponsors and funders(various US intel agencies).
     The 2006 invasion by Israel of Lebanon, where Israel were forced to withdraw after less than six weeks, being the last time Israel dare to face Hezbollah directly. Since that time it is known that Hezbollah have become only stronger. That is why all Israelis listen when Nasrallah speaks.
   
 

I accept very little of your post. You must be the only person who doesn't realize Hezbollah is funded by Iranian oil money. Who else pays for the welfare programmes, of which I am fully aware.

[Steve_uk]

    New realities on the ground in the Middle East are bound to have wider consequences. Western/US military presence in the region is key and any weakening of that position has the obvious consequence of weakening the Zionist state still further. New realities cause negotiating positions to shift. We certainly live in interesting times, Bubo.
     The Chinese are currently finding diplomatic solutions to long standing and seemingly intractable problems and upending Western dominance of the region. Whilst western populations are propagandised with all sorts of nonsense about China and have a mistrust of them based entirely on this propaganda- others see a different picture. Whilst the US and their NATO lapdogs are busy destroying infrastructure, hospitals, ports etc.-the Chinese are busy building Ports, hospitals and infrastructure.
     For everything the West destroys-China builds. The ROW see this and take notice.
     China can be seen as honest and impartial by the representatives of both sides in the Palestinian territories and their offer to mediate is trusted by both sides. The problem isn't Jews or Muslims or Christians or any other faith or none- the problem is the Zionists. I did at one time believe that a two state solution was possible-I no longer do. A one-state solution is, in my opinion, the only realistic diplomatic solution now. The Chinese, if they pull this one out of the bag, would be the greatest diplomatic achievement in a century or more.
     One way or another, it is difficult to imagine the state of Israel in its current form, surviving for much longer. 
   

Chinese diplomacy: you mean like the One Country Two Systems agreement on Hong Kong, broken after 23 years when it was supposed to last for 50? You mean like the bellicosity shown towards Taiwan? I think I'll pass.

The two-state solution may well be dead. The Palestinians should have accepted it in 1947; they can now repent at leisure.

[gringo]

Chinese diplomacy: you mean like the One Country Two Systems agreement on Hong Kong, broken after 23 years when it was supposed to last for 50? You mean like the bellicosity shown towards Taiwan? I think I'll pass.

The two-state solution may well be dead. The Palestinians should have accepted it in 1947; they can now repent at leisure.

   Your constant invoking of the supposed transgressions by China regarding Hong Kong and Taiwan are laughable. You overlook entirely the "gunboat diplomacy" that led to UK "leasing" Hong Kong and then listen only to their version of broken treaties afterwards.   
     Chinese diplomacy, whether you accept it or not, has led to peace agreements in Yemen, Syria and rapprochement between previously hostile regimes. There is no denying the Chinese contribution to development and infrastructure throughout Africa, Asia and South America. Equally, there is no denying the crumbling infrastructure of the collective West and their destruction of other countries infrastructure.
     Do you imagine that Africans are mulling these deals and then going to think about what the UK says about an "agreement" they forced the Chinese to sign at gunpoint a couple of hundred years ago, in order that the UK could freely traffic opium? Do you think that leaders of countries in the Global South take from these "agreements" the same conclusions as you?
     Chinese build-UK destroy. That is what the world sees. Actions speak loudly, Steve.

[gringo]

I accept very little of your post. You must be the only person who doesn't realize Hezbollah is funded by Iranian oil money. Who else pays for the welfare programmes, of which I am fully aware.

   Hezbollah has many sources of funding-what about it? Why would you imagine that I am unaware of the sources of Hezbollah's funding? What is wrong with "Iranian oil money"? Does it differ from other money? Would it be ok if Iran gave them money that wasn't from oil?
     Your interventions are meaningless.
   

[Steve_uk]

  Your constant invoking of the supposed transgressions by China regarding Hong Kong and Taiwan are laughable. You overlook entirely the "gunboat diplomacy" that led to UK "leasing" Hong Kong and then listen only to their version of broken treaties afterwards.   
     Chinese diplomacy, whether you accept it or not, has led to peace agreements in Yemen, Syria and rapprochement between previously hostile regimes. There is no denying the Chinese contribution to development and infrastructure throughout Africa, Asia and South America. Equally, there is no denying the crumbling infrastructure of the collective West and their destruction of other countries infrastructure.
     Do you imagine that Africans are mulling these deals and then going to think about what the UK says about an "agreement" they forced the Chinese to sign at gunpoint a couple of hundred years ago, in order that the UK could freely traffic opium? Do you think that leaders of countries in the Global South take from these "agreements" the same conclusions as you?
     Chinese build-UK destroy. That is what the world sees. Actions speak loudly, Steve.

It was a treaty signed in good faith, maintaining democracy in Hong Kong for 50 years.

Chinese diplomacy when it doesn't go the right way for them: https://youtu.be/Bijz3_PokC4

.and always an ulterior motive where construction is concerned. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/07/the-billion-dollar-motorway-leading-montenegro-to-nowhere

[gringo]

It was a treaty signed in good faith, maintaining democracy in Hong Kong for 50 years.

Chinese diplomacy when it doesn't go the right way for them: https://youtu.be/Bijz3_PokC4

.and always an ulterior motive where construction is concerned. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/07/the-billion-dollar-motorway-leading-montenegro-to-nowhere

    The treaty was not signed in "good faith". It is a prime example of gunboat diplomacy. As for "maintaining democracy in Hong Kong for 50 years"?!. To maintain something-it needs to exist in the first place. Tell us, Steve, when exactly did the UK bring this democracy to Hong Kong which you claim China agreed to "maintain for 50 years"?
     You've been reading regime propaganda again haven't you? Everything you have written is a distorted and untrue version of events. The UK never at any time allowed any democracy in Hong Kong. It was ruled by a UK government appointed Governor;

https://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/hongkonggovernors.htm

     List of governors in link above. I couldn't find the results of the democratic elections that elected them. I'm sure you can help, Steve, knowing all you do about Hong Kong democracy and all.
     Everything that you have written encapsulates why Empire is mistrusted globally and China is trusted globally. The rest of the world don't think like racist colonialists.

[Steve_uk]

    The treaty was not signed in "good faith". It is a prime example of gunboat diplomacy. As for "maintaining democracy in Hong Kong for 50 years"?!. To maintain something-it needs to exist in the first place. Tell us, Steve, when exactly did the UK bring this democracy to Hong Kong which you claim China agreed to "maintain for 50 years"?
     You've been reading regime propaganda again haven't you? Everything you have written is a distorted and untrue version of events. The UK never at any time allowed any democracy in Hong Kong. It was ruled by a UK government appointed Governor;

https://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/hongkonggovernors.htm

     List of governors in link above. I couldn't find the results of the democratic elections that elected them. I'm sure you can help, Steve, knowing all you do about Hong Kong democracy and all.
     Everything that you have written encapsulates why Empire is mistrusted globally and China is trusted globally. The rest of the world don't think like racist colonialists.

Hong Kong had its own parliament and independent judiciary, freedom of speech and assembly: all threatened by China's national security law (NSL) of 30 June 2020.

[gringo]

Hong Kong had its own parliament and independent judiciary, freedom of speech and assembly: all threatened by China's national security law (NSL) of 30 June 2020.

    Steve, you are clueless.
     Are you still claiming that Hong Kong had any form of democracy to "maintain"?
     You now move the goalposts to the above "word salad".

     Hong Kong had its own parliament - It was ruled by a UK appointed governor who was advised by a legislative council that the Governor headed and appointed half of the council.
     The sham of running elections for the first time for the legislative council(which had no power anyway) in 1994(3 years before the treaty expired) was just an obvious piece of perfidy by the UK government in order that half informed drones could make the arguments that you just have. Gets past the uninformed but falls apart on contact with reason once more meat is put on the bones of your latest pathetic apologia for gunboat imperialism.
      and independent judiciary, freedom of speech and assembly: Who appointed the "independent judiciary", Steve? Simply tacking "independent" in front of a word doesn't magically make it so.
     Hong Kong was treated as a colony. The UK weren't liberating Hong Kong when they captured it, they were trafficking opium. Do you not know any of this? If you do, then why are you attempting(badly) to paint the UK as some kind of benevolent uncle. Your revisionist history is straight from the colonialists themselves. You can polish it, cover it in glitter and put a bow on it before presenting it-but we can all see it's still just a turd.
     

[David1819]

I am currently on a Google Cloud engineering course. One of the learners in my cohort is from Hong Kong, he is one of the many who have come here recently due to the recent CCP crackdown.

[gringo]

As for being a "hateful state" its a bit difficult to like your neighbours when they hate you also.  -

https://twitter.com/abierkhatib/status/1402038231508688896

     No words. Absolute scum

[Steve_uk]

As for being a "hateful state" its a bit difficult to like your neighbours when they hate you also.  -

https://twitter.com/abierkhatib/status/1402038231508688896

     No words. Absolute scum

I'll give you some words: my information is it was a 9-year-old boy throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. If a British 9-year-old boy was throwing stones at police in Manchester City Centre he would be detained then let go without charge, as occurred with the incident you post here.

[gringo]

I'll give you some words: my information is it was a 9-year-old boy throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. If a British 9-year-old boy was throwing stones at police in Manchester City Centre he would be detained then let go without charge, as occurred with the incident you post here.

    If a British child were throwing stones at soldiers, that child would not be dragged off by heavily armed soldiers, Steve. If that did happen, on a regular basis as it does in Israel, it would not be tolerated. You obviously would tolerate it as can be reasonably inferred.
     Those soldiers are only there to protect the Zionist state and see the Palestinian inhabitants as the enemy. You will never see those same police brutally arrest or detain an Israeli Jewish person(child or otherwise). They act as back up when illegal "settlers" attack Palestinian Arabs and bulldoze their homes.
     How many Israeli Jews are are killed by Palestinians annually?
     How many Palestinians are killed by Israeli "Security Forces" annually?
     How many Israeli Jews are held in detention by Palestinians?
     How many Palestinians are held in detention by Israel?

     Answer those questions and the next two answer themselves

     Who are the oppressed?
     Who are the oppressors?

[Steve_uk]

    If a British child were throwing stones at soldiers, that child would not be dragged off by heavily armed soldiers, Steve. If that did happen, on a regular basis as it does in Israel, it would not be tolerated. You obviously would tolerate it as can be reasonably inferred.
     Those soldiers are only there to protect the Zionist state and see the Palestinian inhabitants as the enemy. You will never see those same police brutally arrest or detain an Israeli Jewish person(child or otherwise). They act as back up when illegal "settlers" attack Palestinian Arabs and bulldoze their homes.
     How many Israeli Jews are are killed by Palestinians annually?
     How many Palestinians are killed by Israeli "Security Forces" annually?
     How many Israeli Jews are held in detention by Palestinians?
     How many Palestinians are held in detention by Israel?

     Answer those questions and the next two answer themselves

     Who are the oppressed?
     Who are the oppressors?

There's no solution currently following the failure of the Oslo Accords, principally because there's no trust left between the two parties.  https://youtu.be/X3UqEn8EHSo

[David1819]

I put Gringos question to chatGPT. The response is as follows

"As an AI language model, I do not have personal beliefs or opinions, but I can provide some context and information about the statement you mentioned.

Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah is the Secretary General of Hezbollah, a political and militant group based in Lebanon. He has made various statements in the past regarding Israel and its existence.

In a speech in 2018, Sayyed Nasrallah stated that he believes Israel will not last for more than 25 years, which would mean the end of the State of Israel by 2043. In a subsequent speech in 2020, he revised his prediction to 20 years, meaning the end of Israel by 2040.

It's important to note that these statements are political predictions and opinions, rather than statements of fact, and they are highly controversial and disputed. The future is inherently unpredictable, and many factors could influence the fate of Israel in the coming years.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that such statements could contribute to tensions and animosity between different groups and nations. It's always important to approach such statements with a critical and analytical mindset and to strive for peaceful solutions to conflicts."