Flaws in David1819's Sheila scenario.

[killingeve]

It's not just how they were found Snow it's all the WS's as well, DB contradicts himself for example.

If I had found the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it, I would have carefully wrapped it up not tried to unscrew it! and took it that very minute straight to the police.

I would not need to be ringing around for advice of what to do!

Where's the evidence anyone, other than the lab, unscrewed the silencer?

As I said upthread judge and jury heard all about the finding of the silencer and chain of custody thereafter.

[killingeve]

Thanks Adam yes DB contradicts himself plus lots of other issues.

This does not prove innocence, but it greatly undermines the blood evidence.

There were two silencers I think this can almost be proved? differing measurements quoted to 0.1 of a mm cannot be claimed as mistakes.

Bamber also contradicts himself a lot.  Eg whether he called the police or Julie first and this was shortly after the murders so what point are you endeavouring to make re DB?

How does anything you've asserted greatly undermine the blood evidence?  If it did Bamber wouldn't still be behind bars.

How does your claim of 2 silencers undermine the one presented at trial along with the highly incriminating blood evidence?  NGB has already stated several silencers were examined. 

Where are you getting 0.1mm from?

[Adam]

Ok, thanks for the translation but no idea how this undermines the blood evidence and/or supports Bamber.

Me either. But good that Rob & Mike think outside the box.

[Adam]

Ok, thanks for the translation but no idea how this undermines the blood evidence and/or supports Bamber.

What do you think of Rob's theory that Bamber would be 'home free' if he had left the silencer next to Sheila?

[Rob_]

Where's the evidence anyone, other than the lab, unscrewed the silencer?

As I said upthread judge and jury heard all about the finding of the silencer and chain of custody thereafter.

A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.

After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.

If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?

[Adam]

A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.

After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.

If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?

Why would the head of biology say that? RB was not a victim or the accused.

The police would not have asked for information regarding RB. 

Bamber only started focusing on the silencer & the relatives in the 90's.

Is that article from Eric Allison?

[Adam]

It is very sick accusing the relatives of fabricating the silencer. Espescially as it was impossible to do.

But there will always be a handful.

[killingeve]

What do you think of Rob's theory that Bamber would be 'home free' if he had left the silencer next to Sheila?

I struggle to follow Rob's train of thought in most regards and certainly with regard to the blood/silencer.

No idea how Bamber would be 'home free' had he left the silencer next to Sheila?  The tiny amount of blood on the outside and just inside the bore (visible from outside) was confirmed as blood and human in origin but too small for further analysis so no one can say for certain whether the individual blood stains originated from Sheila or Nevill (during the beating) or a combi of both.  The paint would still support the scratches etc.  When opened up Bamber would be where he is now. 

[Adam]

I struggle to follow Rob's train of thought in most regards and certainly with regard to the blood/silencer.

No idea how Bamber would be 'home free' had he left the silencer next to Sheila?  The tiny amount of blood on the outside and just inside the bore (visible from outside) was confirmed as blood and human in origin but too small for further analysis so no one can say for certain whether the individual blood stains originated from Sheila or Nevill (during the beating) or a combi of both.  The paint would still support the scratches etc.  When opened up Bamber would be where he is now.

Me & Rob agree that Sheila would have left the silencer next to her.

If the relatives agreed with Rob that Bamber would have left the silencer next to Sheila, we both agree they would not have attempted the fabrication. 

So either the relatives agree with me & disagree with Rob. Or Bamber put the silencer away.

The supporting evidence against Bamber suggests Bamber put the silencer away.

[killingeve]

A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.

After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.

If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?

I have already pointed out that the expert for the defence pre-trial stated that about 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to share Sheila's blood groupings which match the flake.  I have never seen any evidence for the relatives submitting their blood for analysis other than a claim in Wilkes' book so no idea if there's any truth in it.  I would be surprised if a biologist would describe the above using the words you've quoted since the blood in theory could have come from about 8% of unrelated white British people and isn't statistically individualising unlike blood analysis using DNA.  There may well be others who handled the silencer who also shared those blood groups eg those in the manufacturing process, retailers, Jean Boutell who might have come into contact with it in her capacity of housekeeper so why would a scientist single out RWB?  Realistically how would anyone's blood enter the silencer if not from 'drawback'?

Are you able to upload a copy of the letter?

[Rob_]

I have already pointed out that the expert for the defence pre-trial stated that about 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to share Sheila's blood groupings which match the flake.  I have never seen any evidence for the relatives submitting their blood for analysis other than a claim in Wilkes' book so no idea if there's any truth in it.  I would be surprised if a biologist would describe the above using the words you've quoted since the blood in theory could have come from about 8% of unrelated white British people and isn't statistically individualising unlike blood analysis using DNA.  There may well be others who handled the silencer who also shared those blood groups eg those in the manufacturing process, retailers, Jean Boutell who might have come into contact with it in her capacity of housekeeper so why would a scientist single out RWB?  Realistically how would anyone's blood enter the silencer if not from 'drawback'?

Are you able to upload a copy of the letter?

The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.

[Adam]

The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.

8% of the population were not on trial. And neither were the relatives.

The jury were told it matched Sheila's blood group. With a remote possibility of it being a mixture of June"s & Nevill's.

The judge is not obliged to say the blood group matches 8% of the population.

[killingeve]

The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.

Courts are concerned with plausibility not fanciful notions.  The court heard the defence arguments about the blood flake representing an "intimate" mix of June and Nevill's blood but rejected this on the basis that Sheila's as a stand alone from 'drawback' was more compelling.  How would anyone elses blood realistically enter inside the silencer?  If you're able to respond please by very specific.

[snow66!]

Courts are concerned with plausibility not fanciful notions.  The court heard the defence arguments about the blood flake representing an "intimate" mix of June and Nevill's blood but rejected this on the basis that Sheila's as a stand alone from 'drawback' was more compelling.  How would anyone elses blood realistically enter inside the silencer?  If you're able to respond please by very specific.

This is all argued in Wilkes book Cutie,and Adam knows this.The Judge took liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury.A mixture of the other victims blood is well within the realms of possibility.

[Adam]

8% of the population were not on trial. And neither were the relatives.

The jury were told it matched Sheila's blood group. With a remote possibility of it being a mixture of June"s & Nevill's.

The judge is not obliged to say the blood group matches 8% of the population.

Or that it matches DB's.

The jury knew the relatives found the silencer. So had plenty of time to think up crazy theories.