Author Topic: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber  (Read 14745 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #150 on: July 08, 2022, 07:41:PM »
Both parents would need to be dead for Bamber to have a chance of inheriting anything substantial -

Nevill dies first - Goes to June.

June dies first - Bamber gets some more shares in the caravan park. If not disinherited by June.

----------

June & Nevill were 61 & both quite fit. There would be a good possibility of one of them living another 20 years. 

As said June's will already also included Sheila, the church & other friends/relatives.

It is likely Bamber would be disinherited by June & the twins would be added.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 07:57:PM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #151 on: July 08, 2022, 07:49:PM »
Bamber would be upset that he would not inherit from Nevill. If Nevill died first.

He would know that if June then has everything he may get cut out completely.
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Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #152 on: July 08, 2022, 07:54:PM »
Ideally for Bamber, June would die first. If she has cut Bamber out of her will, it would not be a disaster as he was only going to inherit her caravan park shares.

Nevill dying first gives June everything. Meaning Bamber working on the farm for decades may count for nothing.
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Offline Cambridgecutie

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #153 on: July 08, 2022, 08:33:PM »
Can you point me to your 200 pieces of evidence that proves JB committed the crime please, from what you posted above I am expecting some pretty strong evidence.

Perhaps if you start with your top ten pieces of evidence then post the rest latter, your chance to switch me to a guilter.


To answer your question, no I won't list 200 pieces of evidence, because it would be unwieldy, and would be incredibly boring to read. 

The evidence is there to read on this forum, the red forum and various books and documentaries.

I'm more into narrative explanations, rather than list building.

The point that I was making was less about 200 pieces of evidence, and more about there being a large body of evidence that collectively, as a whole, points to Sheila being less likely to have committed the crime, as well as Jeremy being more likely to have committed the crime.

The dry, academic and legal argument is that if Sheila didn't do it, then Jeremy did.

Or to put it another way, if Jeremy didn't do it, then Sheila did.

Jeremy Bamber is the one who will not allow any other scenario, like an assassin, or a burglar.

There are two main scenarios laid out by both defence and prosecution:

If Sheila did it, then it was due to a completely unpredicted and unexpected, random psychotic mental breakdown, triggered by her schizophrenia.

If Jeremy did it, then it was as a result of a psychopath, calmly and cold-bloodedly planning the murder of his family over approximately an 18 month period.   

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is innocent seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Sheila had a breakdown as described above, and nobody blames her, as she was mentally ill.  Just one of those things.

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is guilty seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Jeremy is a psychopath who carefully planned the crime in cold blood over a period of time.

So, to put it mildly disrespectfully, based on the above, there's the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, or the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

------------------------

So all the evidence that was presented to the police, collected, collated, bungled, messed up, lost, and all the rest of it, all that we now know evidentially, has to be set, or tested, against either 'Jeremy the psycho',  or 'Sheila went mad'.

For example, there were 25 shots fired, and each hit their target.  As an example, one of the boys had 5 bullets in his tiny little head, and they were in a single arc, equi-distant from each other.

BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.

So who did it?

'Sheila went mad'?  Or 'Jeremy the psycho'?

But don't ask yourself who actually did it.  Ask yourself, what type of person is most likely to have done it. 

Would it be a calm(ish) psychopath carrying out a plan made over an 18 month period.  Or a person having a random mental breakdown, the symptoms being, behaving in an uncontrollably berserk, crazy and violent way.

Well, for a start, there were no stray bullets.

No stray bullets hit the walls or ceilings, or any other random non-human objects.

25 bullets all hit their target.

None of us were there, so no one can say for sure, but for me it is more likely to be the work of a calm psychopath.  Therefore in this case, that would be 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

If it was the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, then I would expect some stray bullets.  After all, she was mad, she was going crazy, she went berserk.

For me, it is therefore less likely to be Sheila, because I would have expected her to be less accurate and more manic, in her firing technique.

Jeremy was proficient with guns, and was a regular user of the Anschutz.  He even admits to using it to shoot rabbits earlier that very evening.

Sheila knew very little about guns, didn't handle them regularly, if ever.  And had never used the Anschutz, which had been purchased less than a year earlier.

For me, it just makes Sheila less likely to have fired those bullets.  It doesn't mean she didn't do it, but to me:

 25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Sheila went mad'  = less likely that Sheila did it.

And to me:

25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Jeremy the psycho' = more likely that Jeremy did it.

And that is just the firing of the bullets. One piece of evidence.  Not enough to convict on its own. 

But once you start adding up the entire body of evidence, layer by layer, then for each piece of evidence, I keep finding myself saying that the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario is more likely, and the 'Sheila went mad' scenario less likely.

It's the totality of evidence, that when taken into consideration as a single, whole body of evidence, that Bamber looks as guilty as he does. That is when you start to get to the beyond reasonable doubt stage.

Single sheets of paper with an incorrect handwritten timestamp, is not going to put a dent in that whole body of evidence.   

It's never really black or white for me...there is a large area of gray, where something is more likely, or less likely, rather than guilty, or innocent.

Also....and unfortunately for Jeremy Bamber...

There will always be paragraph 518 of the 2002 CoA.  Currently, this evidence proves that Sheila was murdered, and was dead before the firearms officers broke into the house.

And then there is the phone call from Jeremy Bamber to Chelmsford Police station, that proves that Jeremy Bamber tried to frame Sheila.

Those two very big, very important pieces of evidence - on their own - condemn Bamber.

Paragraph 518 will have to be disproved if Bamber is going to overturn his conviction.
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Offline lookout

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #154 on: July 08, 2022, 08:35:PM »
JB was never cut out of the Wills and at least received a percentage of interest after tax earlier on which he was able to pay scientists for doing various tests. Strange how he didn't keep it to himself isn't it being as he was so greedy and grasping ? I'm blowed if I'd have bothered with anything like that if I'd been guilty !

As for the rest of the money, DB had said it was gone---spent ! Didn't take them long did it ?

Offline lookout

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #155 on: July 08, 2022, 08:36:PM »
If Sheila hadn't have killed her family, they'd all have benefitted from Grannie Speakman's estate !

Offline lookout

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #156 on: July 08, 2022, 08:42:PM »
People usually kill if they've got nothing to lose. JB had everything to gain !! Would he have been fool enough to have committed murder, knowing that he wouldn't see a penny ? I think not.

Offline lookout

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #157 on: July 08, 2022, 08:45:PM »
Sheila had lost her mind, her husband,her boys and had reached the point of no return.

Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #158 on: July 08, 2022, 09:12:PM »
Basically Bamber was not in a good place with the wills. As stated above.

Both on what & when he would inherit. Together with finances continually being drained on Sheila, Daniel & Nicholas and the possibility Bamber would be disinherited or lose a large amount.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 09:14:PM by Adam »
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Offline Rob_

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #159 on: July 08, 2022, 09:17:PM »
No idea.

June would inherit from Nevill after Nevill's death. If June was still alive.

June had allocated money to other friends & the church in her will.

If June died before Nevill, Bamber would inherit her shares of the caravan site. Sheila inheriting the freehold of caravan site.

After the caravan break in it is likely June would have cut Bamber out of her will by the time of her death. Re allocating to the twins, church, Sheila & other friends/relatives.

Bamber testified he would have to continue working at WHF to inherit anything from Nevill.

Oh ok I thought you might know who June approached, I do know that Mr Cock had not been notified, so unless June did contact someone I think we have to assume she was not going to go ahead with this?

Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #160 on: July 08, 2022, 09:25:PM »
Oh ok I thought you might know who June approached, I do know that Mr Cock had not been notified, so unless June did contact someone I think we have to assume she was not going to go ahead with this?

MM testimony says -

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

----------

June was 61 & in good health. So no hurry .Then again after the caravan break in Bamber may have felt there was a hurry.
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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #161 on: July 08, 2022, 09:33:PM »

To answer your question, no I won't list 200 pieces of evidence, because it would be unwieldy, and would be incredibly boring to read. 

The evidence is there to read on this forum, the red forum and various books and documentaries.

I'm more into narrative explanations, rather than list building.

The point that I was making was less about 200 pieces of evidence, and more about there being a large body of evidence that collectively, as a whole, points to Sheila being less likely to have committed the crime, as well as Jeremy being more likely to have committed the crime.

The dry, academic and legal argument is that if Sheila didn't do it, then Jeremy did.

Or to put it another way, if Jeremy didn't do it, then Sheila did.

Jeremy Bamber is the one who will not allow any other scenario, like an assassin, or a burglar.

There are two main scenarios laid out by both defence and prosecution:

If Sheila did it, then it was due to a completely unpredicted and unexpected, random psychotic mental breakdown, triggered by her schizophrenia.

If Jeremy did it, then it was as a result of a psychopath, calmly and cold-bloodedly planning the murder of his family over approximately an 18 month period.   

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is innocent seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Sheila had a breakdown as described above, and nobody blames her, as she was mentally ill.  Just one of those things.

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is guilty seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Jeremy is a psychopath who carefully planned the crime in cold blood over a period of time.

So, to put it mildly disrespectfully, based on the above, there's the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, or the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

------------------------

So all the evidence that was presented to the police, collected, collated, bungled, messed up, lost, and all the rest of it, all that we now know evidentially, has to be set, or tested, against either 'Jeremy the psycho',  or 'Sheila went mad'.

For example, there were 25 shots fired, and each hit their target.  As an example, one of the boys had 5 bullets in his tiny little head, and they were in a single arc, equi-distant from each other.

BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.

So who did it?

'Sheila went mad'?  Or 'Jeremy the psycho'?

But don't ask yourself who actually did it.  Ask yourself, what type of person is most likely to have done it. 

Would it be a calm(ish) psychopath carrying out a plan made over an 18 month period.  Or a person having a random mental breakdown, the symptoms being, behaving in an uncontrollably berserk, crazy and violent way.

Well, for a start, there were no stray bullets.

No stray bullets hit the walls or ceilings, or any other random non-human objects.

25 bullets all hit their target.

None of us were there, so no one can say for sure, but for me it is more likely to be the work of a calm psychopath.  Therefore in this case, that would be 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

If it was the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, then I would expect some stray bullets.  After all, she was mad, she was going crazy, she went berserk.

For me, it is therefore less likely to be Sheila, because I would have expected her to be less accurate and more manic, in her firing technique.

Jeremy was proficient with guns, and was a regular user of the Anschutz.  He even admits to using it to shoot rabbits earlier that very evening.

Sheila knew very little about guns, didn't handle them regularly, if ever.  And had never used the Anschutz, which had been purchased less than a year earlier.

For me, it just makes Sheila less likely to have fired those bullets.  It doesn't mean she didn't do it, but to me:

 25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Sheila went mad'  = less likely that Sheila did it.

And to me:

25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Jeremy the psycho' = more likely that Jeremy did it.

And that is just the firing of the bullets. One piece of evidence.  Not enough to convict on its own. 

But once you start adding up the entire body of evidence, layer by layer, then for each piece of evidence, I keep finding myself saying that the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario is more likely, and the 'Sheila went mad' scenario less likely.

It's the totality of evidence, that when taken into consideration as a single, whole body of evidence, that Bamber looks as guilty as he does. That is when you start to get to the beyond reasonable doubt stage.

Single sheets of paper with an incorrect handwritten timestamp, is not going to put a dent in that whole body of evidence.   

It's never really black or white for me...there is a large area of gray, where something is more likely, or less likely, rather than guilty, or innocent.

Also....and unfortunately for Jeremy Bamber...

There will always be paragraph 518 of the 2002 CoA.  Currently, this evidence proves that Sheila was murdered, and was dead before the firearms officers broke into the house.

And then there is the phone call from Jeremy Bamber to Chelmsford Police station, that proves that Jeremy Bamber tried to frame Sheila.

Those two very big, very important pieces of evidence - on their own - condemn Bamber.

Paragraph 518 will have to be disproved if Bamber is going to overturn his conviction.

I would agree with this, though didn't one of the Raid Team pull the front of Sheila's nightdress down to mainitain her modesty?

Offline Adam

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #162 on: July 08, 2022, 09:34:PM »
I would agree with this, though didn't one of the Raid Team pull the front of Sheila's nightdress down to mainitain her modesty?

You will need to source that.
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Offline ILB

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #163 on: July 08, 2022, 09:35:PM »
The phonecall to Chelmsford doesn't condemn Bamber at all
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Offline Rob_

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Re: Two hundred pieces of evidence against Bamber
« Reply #164 on: July 08, 2022, 09:36:PM »

To answer your question, no I won't list 200 pieces of evidence, because it would be unwieldy, and would be incredibly boring to read. 

The evidence is there to read on this forum, the red forum and various books and documentaries.

I'm more into narrative explanations, rather than list building.

The point that I was making was less about 200 pieces of evidence, and more about there being a large body of evidence that collectively, as a whole, points to Sheila being less likely to have committed the crime, as well as Jeremy being more likely to have committed the crime.

The dry, academic and legal argument is that if Sheila didn't do it, then Jeremy did.

Or to put it another way, if Jeremy didn't do it, then Sheila did.

Jeremy Bamber is the one who will not allow any other scenario, like an assassin, or a burglar.

There are two main scenarios laid out by both defence and prosecution:

If Sheila did it, then it was due to a completely unpredicted and unexpected, random psychotic mental breakdown, triggered by her schizophrenia.

If Jeremy did it, then it was as a result of a psychopath, calmly and cold-bloodedly planning the murder of his family over approximately an 18 month period.   

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is innocent seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Sheila had a breakdown as described above, and nobody blames her, as she was mentally ill.  Just one of those things.

And people who say Jeremy Bamber is guilty seem to be in agreement (mostly) that Jeremy is a psychopath who carefully planned the crime in cold blood over a period of time.

So, to put it mildly disrespectfully, based on the above, there's the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, or the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

------------------------

So all the evidence that was presented to the police, collected, collated, bungled, messed up, lost, and all the rest of it, all that we now know evidentially, has to be set, or tested, against either 'Jeremy the psycho',  or 'Sheila went mad'.

For example, there were 25 shots fired, and each hit their target.  As an example, one of the boys had 5 bullets in his tiny little head, and they were in a single arc, equi-distant from each other.

BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.
BANG.

So who did it?

'Sheila went mad'?  Or 'Jeremy the psycho'?

But don't ask yourself who actually did it.  Ask yourself, what type of person is most likely to have done it. 

Would it be a calm(ish) psychopath carrying out a plan made over an 18 month period.  Or a person having a random mental breakdown, the symptoms being, behaving in an uncontrollably berserk, crazy and violent way.

Well, for a start, there were no stray bullets.

No stray bullets hit the walls or ceilings, or any other random non-human objects.

25 bullets all hit their target.

None of us were there, so no one can say for sure, but for me it is more likely to be the work of a calm psychopath.  Therefore in this case, that would be 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario.

If it was the 'Sheila went mad' scenario, then I would expect some stray bullets.  After all, she was mad, she was going crazy, she went berserk.

For me, it is therefore less likely to be Sheila, because I would have expected her to be less accurate and more manic, in her firing technique.

Jeremy was proficient with guns, and was a regular user of the Anschutz.  He even admits to using it to shoot rabbits earlier that very evening.

Sheila knew very little about guns, didn't handle them regularly, if ever.  And had never used the Anschutz, which had been purchased less than a year earlier.

For me, it just makes Sheila less likely to have fired those bullets.  It doesn't mean she didn't do it, but to me:

 25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Sheila went mad'  = less likely that Sheila did it.

And to me:

25 bullets efficiently dispatched, all hit their target + 'Jeremy the psycho' = more likely that Jeremy did it.

And that is just the firing of the bullets. One piece of evidence.  Not enough to convict on its own. 

But once you start adding up the entire body of evidence, layer by layer, then for each piece of evidence, I keep finding myself saying that the 'Jeremy the psycho' scenario is more likely, and the 'Sheila went mad' scenario less likely.

It's the totality of evidence, that when taken into consideration as a single, whole body of evidence, that Bamber looks as guilty as he does. That is when you start to get to the beyond reasonable doubt stage.

Single sheets of paper with an incorrect handwritten timestamp, is not going to put a dent in that whole body of evidence.   

It's never really black or white for me...there is a large area of gray, where something is more likely, or less likely, rather than guilty, or innocent.

Also....and unfortunately for Jeremy Bamber...

There will always be paragraph 518 of the 2002 CoA.  Currently, this evidence proves that Sheila was murdered, and was dead before the firearms officers broke into the house.

And then there is the phone call from Jeremy Bamber to Chelmsford Police station, that proves that Jeremy Bamber tried to frame Sheila.

Those two very big, very important pieces of evidence - on their own - condemn Bamber.

Paragraph 518 will have to be disproved if Bamber is going to overturn his conviction.

I guess we all see things differently, to me the crime was an act of pure rage, over the years JB has had many psychological reports and shows no signs of these traits.

As regards the 25 shots they were all at point blank range and into for the most part stationary targets, I think it would be harder to miss.

Finally the phone call, if JB is guilty he can say and do whatever he wants, if he really planned the crime over the last 18 months surely he would simply dial 999? Why does he cast suspicion on himself for no reason?

Sorry I am still a supporter or whatever term you want to use, but thanks for your reply.