Author Topic: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent  (Read 7846 times)

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Online snow66!

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Hello everyone,i would like to take another look at the livor mortis issue.Vanezis stated that livor mortis or hypostasis as he called it was well established in the adult victims.This is no surprise as they had been dead for over 12hrs if JB was guilty before any autopsies were done.Livor mortis is visible about two hrs after death,becomes bright red after 3-4 hrs and is at a maximum state after 6-8hrs turning a blue/purple colour.Lividity is fixed after 8-12 hrs after the blood has congealed and can no longer move.Anyway if Sheila died about 2.30, by the time Bird took the crime scene photos between 10 and 12.15 eight hours or more had passed,so livor mortis should have been well established or at its maximum by then.Any visible staining should have been bright red at least,if not purple.So,if sheila died at 2.30 any visible staining should just about be at maximum colour,yet there is nothing obvious in the crime scene photos anywhere on her arms or legs.There should have been staining by this time ,8hrs after death,But maybe in Sheilas case there simply wasn't going to be much staining.If this was the case,then the photos that Bird took at the morgue should be no different,showing little staining on Sheilas arms or legs.If however the autopsy photos were to show obvious blue patches on her arms or legs that were not present in the crime scene photos,this may change everything.It could mean that Sheila did indeed die much later than the other victims,and had only been dead between 2.5-3hrs when the crime scene photos were taken,hence very little visible staining was present caused by livor mortis at that stage.But,by the time she was taken to the morgue liver mortis was well established just a Vanezis said.So,if there is obvious blue staining on Sheilas arms/legs in the morgue photos and not in the crime scene photos,i think this points to Sheila dying much later than 2.30 and Bambers innocence.Obviously you would need to see the morgue photos to test this theory out.Any thoughts?

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2022, 12:00:AM »
At room temperature lividity begins 2hrs after death,and lividity is permanent after 8hrs.Room temp=21degrees celsius. Any warmer,lividity will happen quicker.Any colder lividity will be slower.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2022, 12:06:AM »
Lividity was more than likely at a maximum colour and permanently fixed before Sheila was moved and taken to the morgue IF she died at 2.30 or there abouts.It was the height of summer,so couldn't have been very cold through the night inside the Whitehouse.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2022, 03:12:AM »
Any thoughts?

Hi 'Snow..'

Some of the crime scene photographs/images which are [now] available in the public domain, were not 'disclosed to the defence' , or 'known about' by 'the public at large'. This was /is because 'everyone' was tricked into accepting that 'the Essex Police photographic album' entitled 'THE MASTER COPY' album, consisting of 358 photographs, and that 'PC Bird' had taken 'all of the crime scene' and 'autopsy photographs'. That 'HE' had taken 'all of the 358 images'
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2022, 09:20:AM »
Livor Mortis has come up before. Would be interested to read other members' opinions on this.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2022, 09:29:AM »
Hi 'Snow..'

Some of the crime scene photographs/images which are [now] available in the public domain, were not 'disclosed to the defence' , or 'known about' by 'the public at large'. This was /is because 'everyone' was tricked into accepting that 'the Essex Police photographic album' entitled 'THE MASTER COPY' album, consisting of 358 photographs, and that 'PC Bird' had taken 'all of the crime scene' and 'autopsy photographs'. That 'HE' had taken 'all of the 358 images'
Hi mike,do you think the defence saw any of the morgue photos?

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2022, 09:34:AM »
Sheila and June died in the same room,at the same time,in roughlly the same position.Therefore the lividity staining should be roughly the same.High res photos of June should be able to distinguish what is blood stains and what is blue/purple lividity staining on her legs,Sheilas should match.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2022, 09:37:AM »
It was probably a warm night on 7th Aug,or the main bedroom window would not have been opened three inches.Full lividity should have taken place after 8hrs.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2022, 09:44:AM »
We know that livor mortis staining had taken place by the time Sheila was at the morgue because Vanezis states it was well established.But was it on her arms and legs?

Offline David1819

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2022, 10:30:AM »
Yes. From the crime scene photos you can see June is in a much more advanced stage of livor mortis than Sheila is. This indicates Sheila died at a later stage than June did.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2022, 11:07:AM »
Yes. From the crime scene photos you can see June is in a much more advanced stage of livor mortis than Sheila is. This indicates Sheila died at a later stage than June did.
Thanks Dave,i wasn't sure what may be blood stains and  what could be lividity stains.No doubt better images would show up the blue patches.

Online snow66!

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2022, 11:11:AM »
Yes. From the crime scene photos you can see June is in a much more advanced stage of livor mortis than Sheila is. This indicates Sheila died at a later stage than June did.
So,you agree morgue photos may show blue patches on Sheilas legs/arms Dave,proving lividity set in much later than June?

Offline Adam

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2022, 11:29:AM »
Rigor mortis occurs more rapidly in the very old because they have lower muscle mass.

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June was 34 years older than Sheila. That is if the photos do show anything, which I doubt. Need more than David's unqualified view.

I do admire Snow66!'s tenancity. Searching for something, anything.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2022, 12:44:PM »
When Julie referred to 'bruises' could she have actually been referring to Livor Mortis?

Offline Jane

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Re: Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2022, 01:19:PM »
When Julie referred to 'bruises' could she have actually been referring to Livor Mortis?


Well reasoned, Roch. Possibly so.